OpenCart business model?

SuperJuice wrote:I knew you'd be back to troll my post (thanks for quoting out of context), so let me reword it. My issue exists with support of code and courtesy within this community.

It's not a troll. You want code you write to be treated differently than the way you advocate treating others'. Your whole complaint about maintaining it makes no sense when your other beef is that attribution to you was stripped.

Mods, can we close this post. It's very disappoint and upsetting that such angst is being raised against all the hypothetical situations where we stop behaving as a community, and disolve into a tit-for-tat forum.

Facts:
Daniel is happy for you to do what you want with OC and it's code
Some people will code modules for money, others for free
Delivering a module implies that you will support it (not mandatory, just creates a sense of community)
Daniel's framework (if you invest the time to learn it), is actually quite good and easy to extend
People's contributes follow the same extensibility. They can be tweaked and resubmitted
We re not going to progress the product (which ultimately is a shop front that we can use to make money)
Some past forum behaviour of highlighting people's actions is quite predatory and not helping.
Centralising development, contributions, feedback etc. will help stop misappropriate of people's hard work

Daniel, where would you like to take this product (i have read some of your past roadmaps, perhaps we need a new one). How can we help you (perhaps a core team who are there to organise the site and develop some product plans)?

For everyone else (me included), some homework. Why not list what you've done to extend or use OC, and we can compile a shared (ie community-based) list of developments. That would make support and planning easier, and may help share ideas that we can use to make money ourselves. As an organisation we are missing so many useful artefacts (roadmaps, product documentation, test scripts, user guides, developer guides etc.). If you don't want to code, at least volunteer to contribute something else.

Opencart will be huge, if you want it to be.

- [MB]

melbagnato wrote:Mods, can we close this post. It's very disappoint and upsetting that such angst is being raised against all the hypothetical situations where we stop behaving as a community, and disolve into a tit-for-tat forum.

I would, but what to do with the questions you ask?

Daniel, where would you like to take this product (i have read some of your past roadmaps, perhaps we need a new one). How can we help you (perhaps a core team who are there to organise the site and develop some product plans)?

For everyone else (me included), some homework. Why not list what you've done to extend or use OC, and we can compile a shared (ie community-based) list of developments. That would make support and planning easier, and may help share ideas that we can use to make money ourselves. As an organisation we are missing so many useful artefacts (roadmaps, product documentation, test scripts, user guides, developer guides etc.). If you don't want to code, at least volunteer to contribute something else.

Opencart will be huge, if you want it to be.

- [MB]

rph wrote:

SuperJuice wrote:I knew you'd be back to troll my post (thanks for quoting out of context), so let me reword it. My issue exists with support of code and courtesy within this community.

It's not a troll. You want code you write to be treated differently than the way you advocate treating others'. Your whole complaint about maintaining it makes no sense when your other beef is that attribution to you was stripped.

I suggest you re-read it.

It makes perfect sense, people are using my contribution thread on this forum for support on the version that was merged into the main source (and had attribution removed), something I had no involvement or say in, why should I be expected to support that? (I won't be if the version in 1.4.1 is released) especially when it was hacked up to a point where it didn't work.

I am saying, if Daniel wants me to support the merged version (not my contribution/addon version), my terms are that I am involved in what is merged and I am attributed for the contribution in the main source.

As I said, you can do what you want with the source.. I don't want it treated any differently... just don't come knocking when you break it.

I feel like I am repeating myself:

This isn't dictating how you use the source, it is specifying terms by which I will support it after you touch it. You can do what you want with my source, that is why it is available for free, just don't expect me to support it after you hack it up and break it.

We can keep going round and round with this BS, but I feel my time could be better spent contributing code back to the community.

I look forward to seeing your contributions in future.

i am planning on updatign the contribution section after 1.4.1 is out. it will have a whole login system so you can mamange stuff.

superjuice,

I only included it to try to get more people from OZ to use OpenCart. I probably will remove it from the main install and let people look through a list linked from the admin of avaalible shipping methods in the contibution section.

SuperJuice wrote:It makes perfect sense, people are using my contribution thread on this forum for support on the version that was merged into the main source (and had attribution removed), something I had no involvement or say in, why should I be expected to support that?

Who's saying you do?

Listen, if you're going to claim "imposing your moral views on how opensource software can/should be used by others is violating the spirit of it" then you don't have a leg to stand on when complaining - right or wrongly - about how your code in turn is implemented.

I'm imposing no restriction on how he or anyone else uses the code or how it's implemented.

I have no obligation under the GPL to support what he has done but I have been for the communities benefit and because there has been a lack of support coming from Daniel. My terms are.. if Daniel expects me to continue to go beyond my obligation and continue supporting his merged/modified code he needs to give me some credit for it.

I have no problems completely walking away, he can incorporate the currently available code however he wants and I will go find something better to do with my time than bugfixing the hacks. Maybe I could jump on the writing 'pay for' modules bandwagon.

Daniel knows about the situation, and I am sure he understands that it is putting me offside. It has little to nothing to do with you.

no one is expecting you to be there to support everyone for the rest for time.

I thought I could add lots of modules in to make opencart more popualr. the problem is that payment gateway companies and shipping companies are changing stuff all the time and its hard to keep up with things.

I thought that was the point of modules.

I think adding it to the core when I am actively developing it (for free) seems a little counter productive, especially considering that the included version is never updated or tested thoroughly.

Nothing has changed in the gateway Australia Post provide, when the module was edited/merged it was never actually tested, and some very obvious coding mistakes prevented it from working (renaming of variables).

Putting a module into the core may get people to use OpenCart, but merging it in and having it never work will just have people testing OpenCart and deciding Australia Post support is broken.

I think you should stop trying to control everything so much, and trust other developers to write and test their own code/modules.

Consistent code is a good thing as anyone who's poked under the hood of OS Commerce or Zen Cart can attest to.

rph wrote:Consistent code is a good thing as anyone who's poked under the hood of OS Commerce or Zen Cart can attest to.

The 'consistent' code in this context was identical code merged in and variable names changed. Consistency aside, the fact that when it was merged it was broken, completely untested and utterly useless due to it's modifications makes the whole merge pointless.

I think given the fact it's essentially impossible to make changes to the OpenCart main branch after code as been merged in (unless you put it through Daniel) merging quickly developing modules are a waste of Daniel's time and causes unnecessary confusion with versions in the community. I have provided a fix on multiple occasions for the broken merged version and nothing has happened. It has now fallen so out of date it's not worth worrying about.

There is nothing wrong with the Australia Post module, and the fact people are using the Dropbear edition over bothering to fix the merged version shows this.

I suggest you take part in the development process around here for a while and you might find that what I am saying is what a lot of other developers in the community are saying as well (all came to a head when 1.4.0 was released). It's easy to sit back and punch out one liners about code consistency without being involved in how 'version control' and community contribution 'works' around here.

This is turning more into a rant over a module. Just release your own version of the module. Nobody is asking you to support the one that comes with OpenCart.. even if it was yours at some point, its no longer yours to worry about. Just continue maintaining your own version and share it if you like. OpenCart has an authorize.net and usps module too. But as mine precede the ones that come with the cart, I just keep them up to date like any other module. Just make your own external AusPost module

Lets get this back on topic in regards to business model. At this time, we have 7 pages of what daniel shoulda/woulda/coulda but none of it putting any money into his pocket. If you have an idea to help or would like to contribute, then feel free to comment. But ranting about who's module is where and what license does what is a different topic.

SuperJuice wrote:I thought that was the point of modules.

I think adding it to the core when I am actively developing it (for free) seems a little counter productive, especially considering that the included version is never updated or tested thoroughly.

Nothing has changed in the gateway Australia Post provide, when the module was edited/merged it was never actually tested, and some very obvious coding mistakes prevented it from working (renaming of variables).

Putting a module into the core may get people to use OpenCart, but merging it in and having it never work will just have people testing OpenCart and deciding Australia Post support is broken.

The core should be as clean as possible - not everybody needs anything!
I guess, many people would also install/use OC IF they know that the core is stable AND there are many extensions (moduels/templates/etc.) exisisting which can be installed easily (see installer).

SuperJuice wrote:I think you should stop trying to control everything so much, and trust other developers to write and test their own code/modules.

Well said!

If OpenCart would have included a good installer, each module/template/etc. could be installed (and UNinstalled) at any time WITHOUT any manual editing and fiddeling the files!

But first Daniel should establish the internal structure and should rethink the publishing of unstable versions.

Qphoria wrote:If you have an idea to help or would like to contribute, then feel free to comment.

I would say that here are many - very many - proposals, suggestions and help offers from many.
But no response from the one who should make decisions.

Who should make the decisions do not take because it is not safe even to decide what is best!!
I tried to help him understand what is best for OpenCart but him was not acted upon!!
At this point I do not say nothing and wait for the stable version and then i make them change right.
I remind everyone that he does not touch anything to anyone!
You do the test but after you pass by him.
You are not allowed to adjust code and post to OpenCart script: only allowed to report ... how sad

Regards, Marco

For those who always complaint, please just respect daniel he spent lot of time in this project, that is his project, he can do what he want!

we have 7 pages of what daniel shoulda/woulda/coulda but none of it putting any money into his pocket. If you have an idea to help or would like to contribute, then feel free to comment.
100% Agreed! Daniel need money support so he can has more time to develop OC, but he can't at this moment!

waye wrote:For those who always complaint, please just respect daniel he spent lot of time in this project, that is his project, he can do what he want!

we have 7 pages of what daniel shoulda/woulda/coulda but none of it putting any money into his pocket. If you have an idea to help or would like to contribute, then feel free to comment.
100% Agreed! Daniel need money support so he can has more time to develop OC, but he can't at this moment!

And this makes a nice closure.