Post by marshanite » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:55 am

I am UK VAT registered and I am trying to setup my VAT in opencart. I am running 1.4.9.5 at the moment with a non standard template. I have set up my tax correctly and also my geo zones. I have also set the system setting to display taxes and the product as a taxable item. The price of the product is £33 and when I go to the checkout the price is OK but the system then adds on Vat at 6.60 which is incorrect, giving a total of 39.60 plus shipping.

I have looked and tried at other UK sites running OC (sorry but I had to do the research) and have found that they either added VAT at the end which I dont want to do as it means that the customer will not see the true price of the product until they reach the checkout (this is OK for wholesalers but not for me), or they have completely ignored the VAT. I presume that they are not VAT registered so they can do this.

Is there any way that I can have the checkout take the total including VAT i.e. £33, display the VAT and the £33 without the VAT and then total the two.

Many thanks

Les Clancy

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Post by SXGuy » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:17 pm

the problem is, you are adding a product price which includes vat, it should be excluding vat.

I have suggested in the past that the wording for product price should be changed to make it easier to know this.

But anyway, you need to take £33 and remove the amount of vat, then use that price, then the products and the cart will add back the correct amount of vat for you.

So for £33, at 20% vat, you would need to

33 *1 / 6 (20% as a fraction) = £5.5 vat

33 - 5.5. = £27.50.

There you go, replace the product price with 27.50 and it will add vat of 5.5 on to it for you, so the total is £33.

There is currently no way to add prices which already include vat, number of reasons for this, but lets just say, price excluding vat is the correct and right method to use.

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Post by marshanite » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:57 pm

SXGuy wrote:the problem is, you are adding a product price which includes vat, it should be excluding vat.

I have suggested in the past that the wording for product price should be changed to make it easier to know this.

But anyway, you need to take £33 and remove the amount of vat, then use that price, then the products and the cart will add back the correct amount of vat for you.

So for £33, at 20% vat, you would need to

33 *1 / 6 (20% as a fraction) = £5.5 vat

33 - 5.5. = £27.50.

There you go, replace the product price with 27.50 and it will add vat of 5.5 on to it for you, so the total is £33.

There is currently no way to add prices which already include vat, number of reasons for this, but lets just say, price excluding vat is the correct and right method to use.


Thanks SXguy for your reply. I am with you in what you say but most of my shoppers are UK buyers who want to see the price including VAT. You would not go into M and S and buy a shirt with £10 on the ticket and then go to the checkout and find that you wont be paying £10 but £10 plus VAT. It wouldn't do the sales at M and S any good and I don't think it would work for me.

I really can't understand why OC, which is such a fantastic system doesn't allow for this.

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Post by pierrelejohn » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:30 pm

Hi dont get me started on the old chestnut

read this thread

http://forum.opencart.com/viewtopic.php?f=110&t=30267

unfortunatly if you want the prices shown with vat at checkout you are out of luck
it doesn't matter how the large retailers do it on their webstores
you will get slated for asking and will be told that you run your business incorrectly.

The way opencart as it is at the moment is great for vat registered customers, not for the general public which I beleive confuses them

why someone doesn't just do the vat system the way we would like it is beyond me !

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Post by marshanite » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:43 pm

SXGuy wrote:the problem is, you are adding a product price which includes vat, it should be excluding vat.

I have suggested in the past that the wording for product price should be changed to make it easier to know this.

But anyway, you need to take £33 and remove the amount of vat, then use that price, then the products and the cart will add back the correct amount of vat for you.

So for £33, at 20% vat, you would need to

33 *1 / 6 (20% as a fraction) = £5.5 vat

33 - 5.5. = £27.50.

There you go, replace the product price with 27.50 and it will add vat of 5.5 on to it for you, so the total is £33.

There is currently no way to add prices which already include vat, number of reasons for this, but lets just say, price excluding vat is the correct and right method to use.

Further to my previous post I decided to actually try what you said and it seems to have worked. The system price was input as £27.50 but the price shown to the customer is £33. Fantastic. However there is just one problem when the customer goes to checkout the price shown is £27.50 with the checkout shown below:-

Sub-Total: £27.50
VAT: £5.50
Flat Shipping Rate: £2.00
Total: £35.00


This is OK but it would be better if there was a sub total for the item i.e. £33 and then the shipping was added on after that. I think it may confuse but at the moment its better than nothing.

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Post by marshanite » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:55 pm

One thing I have noticed is that when I go to checkout the following is shown:-

Ring 1 £27.50 £27.50

VAT: £5.50
Sub-Total: £27.50
Flat Shipping Rate: £2.00
Total: £35.00

The sub total seem to be wrong. Is this a bug?

The shopping cart sidebox shows this


VAT: £5.50
Sub-Total: £27.50
Flat Shipping Rate: £2.00
Total: £35.00
View Cart | Checkout

so it seems like a bug.

Should it be reported or has it been reported.

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Post by madimar » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:26 pm

I'm not sure it is what you are looking for, but try to change the sort order of order totals.
VAT should be one of the last in sort order.

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Post by marshanite » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:38 pm

madimar wrote:I'm not sure it is what you are looking for, but try to change the sort order of order totals.
VAT should be one of the last in sort order.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk
Hi
Ring 1 £27.50 £27.50

VAT: £5.50
Sub-Total: £27.50
Flat Shipping Rate: £2.00
Total: £35.00


I've tried changing the sort order.

What I want is for the sub total to show

27.50 plus 5.50 which would give 33 and hence show the product plus the VAT.

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Post by SXGuy » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:25 pm

just move the vat order to the 1 from last, so it looks like this

Ring 27.50
Sub total 27.50
flat shipping rate :2.00
vat: 5.50
total 35.00

This set up is absolutely fine, because it shows the amount of vat added to the sub-total before grand total, which is how it should be.

and in response to pierrelejohn 's comment.

You make it sound like we are saying, its this way or the high way, yet you chose to ignore the fact, there are plenty of oppotunities for you, or any one else to develop the mod that you want.
The trouble is, that most of us, who may be able to do it, dont want to, because we prefer it the way it is.

And you also seem to forget that its this way for a reason.

Im not interested in whether M & S show the full total without a vat breakdown, thats their choice, and again, you are entitled to pay someone for this modification.

But to say its wrong to have it the way it is, is completely false. Its not wrong at all.

If i was purchasing goods from Seller A to resale, and i was vat registered, i would want to know how much vat to reclaim.

If i had a grand total of 35. (taken from example above) including vat, i would not know that shipping does not carry vat, i would assume the whole amount is vatable, which it clearly is not.

I understand that from a normal buyers perspective they do not care how much includes vat, but still, its not an excuse to change the system as it is.

My only advise for change, would be to edit the product language file, so the words price, including a brief description that says, (exlcuding vat) to stop all this confusion, because there are plenty of threads all asking why vat looks wrong, when the answer is 9 times out of 10, because they have added a product price including vat instead of excluding.

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Post by marshanite » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:41 pm

I've just looked on the HMRC website and found that for retailers under £250 you don't necessarily have to produce and VAT invoice so I won't and this should be a good fudge.

Thanks for your help

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Post by Moggin » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:33 pm

SXGuy wrote:...My only advise for change, would be to edit the product language file, so the words price, including a brief description that says, (exlcuding vat) to stop all this confusion, because there are plenty of threads all asking why vat looks wrong, when the answer is 9 times out of 10, because they have added a product price including vat instead of excluding.
yes - I'd agree this seems to be a source of confusion sometimes..

The problem is you can show prices ex VAT (for B2B) OR inc VAT (for consumers). But you still have to enter the prices net of VAT, in the back office. This is where the confusion originates. Your suggestion is a good one.

@marshanite, I don't think you have to produce a VAT invoice for ordinary consumers, unless you are asked for one - though SXGuy will know for sure.

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Post by pierrelejohn » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:34 pm

But to say its wrong to have it the way it is, is completely false. Its not wrong at all.
I'm not saying that what it is at the moment is wrong - its fine if you need to break down the figures for b2b customers - which we don't, but you are saying that the way I (and countless others I'm sure) are wanting to show the prices with VAT is wrong, and it isn't

we don't sell to trade, we don't need to produce a VAT invoice, if I needed to it takes 2 seconds in excel

Whatever you might say

its far easier to show customers with the VAT all the way through.

I don't think you can grasp the concept that if goods cost £100 in the cart then show £83.33 at checkout
and that postage shows £7.00 but £5.83 at checkout that customers get a bit confused - and they do, because they have told me so.

I thought that by putting posts in the requests forum, was for a request for help.
not a sermon on why its wrong to ask for prices to simply show VAT

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Post by SXGuy » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:57 am

As i said, its not wrong to ask, if someone is prepared to do it for you, its just not simply wrong how it already is. Thats the only point i was trying to make.

And as for customers being confused, it baffles me as the grand total (maybe excluding shipping costs) is the same as the cart total, regardless of how each individual item is seperated by vat.

I know if it was me, i wouldnt care what the sub totals said so long as the grand total was the same.

But thats neither here nor there, as i stated, its up to you or any one else to make the modification, but it doesnt in my eyes and many others, justify changing opencart defaults.

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Post by mberlant » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:16 pm

marshanite wrote:I've just looked on the HMRC website and found that for retailers under £250 you don't necessarily have to produce and VAT invoice so I won't and this should be a good fudge.
Unfortunately, as I have stated in the other threads on this exact topic, a VAT Invoice must be produced upon demand for a transaction of any amount, and the details of the invoice must be provided prior to the sale if requested.

So, it is ultimately up to you to decide if you wish:
- to hire a programmer to create a module for OpenCart to generate this on-demand invoice on the spot upon demand within your e-commerce store,
- to make the [potential] customer pause the transaction process in order to ring you up in search of this information, or
- to utilise the OpenCart process as it is, which provides the required VAT breakdown information in both the checkout process and the emailed invoice.

Please use proper English at all times, so that all members may understand you.


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Post by sculptex » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:50 am

Just trialling opencart...
Regarding entering inc. vat prices in the admin, I have just tried changing the (default) GBP currency rate to 0.83333333 and it seems to work fine!
So a product for £10 now comes up as £10 inc vat (£8.33 ex vat)
I guess this will autoupdate and reset to 1.0000 when the currencies refresh but other than that are there any problems with using this method for entering vat inclusive prices in admin?

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Post by uksitebuilder » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:26 am

Nice idea, will have to test this myself.

If you dont use any other currencies, you could turn auto-update off.

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Post by mberlant » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:06 am

Please announce the results of your investigation. I fear that, while this is a very slick way of getting prices to display the way you want, you will end up with calculation problems in the shopping cart and at checkout. OpenCart will have difficulties trying to reconcile the devalued GBP used for display with the full rate GBP needed to collect money for your store.

What you may end up needing to do is to create a dummy currency, devalued as you have for the purposes of display, whilst forcing everyone to check out in the real GBP currency.

Please use proper English at all times, so that all members may understand you.


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Post by cdamianou » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:24 am

SXGuy who said shipping doesnt carry VAT. I am lead to believe that if you charge for shipping, it is vatable.

http://www.magictao.co.uk


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Post by grgr » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:16 am

cdamianou wrote:SXGuy who said shipping doesnt carry VAT. I am lead to believe that if you charge for shipping, it is vatable.


I had spotted this some time ago and kept meaning to say something so I kind of agree, it is a little muddy with zero rated items, I think, but in the main VAT should be charged on the shipping.

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Post by SXGuy » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:02 pm

dont think i said shipping doesnt carry VAT, i was just breaking down how the previous posters wanted it.

Some countries require shipping as an extra cost after VAT, whereas some dont.

You would have to judge this by the type of service/product you are selling, if everything carrys a vat charge, then by all means charge vat at the total (including shipping costs) if some services/products are x or zero rated, then you would need to working out the vat seperately, and include this in the costings.

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