Post by Chones » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:07 am

Boy, am I coming back to this late! Have nothing much to add to the heated debate except that I am neutral on mega-dropdowns but open-minded - they are project specific - they work for some sites, not others. It is great that they are an option.

But they ARE better than standard dropdowns, as I pointed out with the links I posted way waaaaaaaaaay earlier.

Thanks to sooskriszta for reposting - they are worth a read.

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Post by celestial » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:52 am

gocreative, one question, if you are the best of the world in design why stay here in this modest forum??? 10+ years of expertice and you dont create your own software?? Please dont say words that hurt and dont waste the space and the time of the others

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Post by gocreative » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:51 am

celestial wrote:gocreative, one question, if you are the best of the world in design why stay here in this modest forum??? 10+ years of expertice and you dont create your own software?? Please dont say words that hurt and dont waste the space and the time of the others
I never said I was the best in the world. I don't claim to be. Why would I create my own software when there are so many good examples, both commercial and free, readily available? Besides, I'm a designer, not a developer.

As for 'words that hurt', I probably went a little overboard with one comment, but I can't stand it when novices continue to debate with experts well after they have been shown to be wrong. When that happens, the novice should treat it as a learning experience and stop the pointless comments. I hardly think I wasted anyone's time - even Qphoria responded to the matter at hand a couple of times, so there was definitely merit in my response.
sooskriszta wrote:
gocreative wrote:The least they could have done is made the list alphabetical.
In 99% of the cases, alphabetical sorting is a stupid thing to do. You sort by volumes, importance, or better still, run card sort tests. Alphabetical sorting has any number of problems, not the least of which is the words you use are not necessarily the words your customer will use. Also, how do you implement alphabetical sort on multilingual sites?
I agree with you 100%. I was just saying that, if nothing else, the menu items should have been alphabetical. At least that would be SOMETHING logical. I would never rely on this method of grouping myself, but clearly Purebeads didn't think anything else made sense either, so that was my last resort for him.

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Post by Purebeads » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:16 am

gocreative wrote:I never said I was the best in the world. I don't claim to be. Why would I create my own software when there are so many good examples, both commercial and free, readily available? Besides, I'm a designer, not a developer.

As for 'words that hurt', I probably went a little overboard with one comment, but I can't stand it when novices continue to debate with experts well after they have been shown to be wrong. When that happens, the novice should treat it as a learning experience and stop the pointless comments. I hardly think I wasted anyone's time - even Qphoria responded to the matter at hand a couple of times, so there was definitely merit in my response.
I wasn't going to jump in again, but you just don't seem to get it. There is no such thing as novices and experts when it comes to using the internet. We all do it, and my opinion is just as valid as your opinion. My view that hover menus (or whatever they are called) are a bad thing is based on a decade of using them. You need to stop talking down to me and the rest of us as if we were all inexperienced idiots.

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Post by gocreative » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:40 am

Purebeads wrote:I wasn't going to jump in again, but you just don't seem to get it. There is no such thing as novices and experts when it comes to using the internet. We all do it, and my opinion is just as valid as your opinion. My view that hover menus (or whatever they are called) are a bad thing is based on a decade of using them. You need to stop talking down to me and the rest of us as if we were all inexperienced idiots.
You're being ridiculous. Of course there are novices and experts when it comes to using the internet. Would you trust the opinion of someone who had only been to one website over the opinion of someone who had been to one million? Of course you wouldn't. The scale may be different here but the rule remains true. How would anything work in the world if no one was ever considered an expert, regardless of their skills, knowledge, experience or qualifications? That defies logic and indicates to me that you don't know what novice and expert mean.

As stated previously, I'm not debating your preference. It's a perfectly valid one. What I am debating, however, is what MOST users prefer or are accustomed to. And, as I pointed out, I have taken part in extensive user testing, undertaken a great amount of ongoing research and have read countless case studies, not to mention working with users on a daily basis for over 12 years. And the outcome of all of that time is that I know what users prefer and expect. If I didn't then I wouldn't be particularly good at my job.

In summary, through the above, gained over a professional career in web design, my opinion is a far more educated and experienced one than yours. Just accept that you ARE an 'inexperienced idiot' in comparison to me -- just as I am compared to others -- and move on.

I trust this settles the matter.

P.S. For the record, I didn't speak down to anyone else on the forum, and I never have. I guess that says something about you.

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Post by marc_cole » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:04 pm

gocreative wrote:You're being ridiculous...
Just accept that you ARE an 'inexperienced idiot' in comparison to me...
I trust this settles the matter...
Just in case anyone else is tired of reading the useless drivel this person has filled this topic with, just go to your User Control Panel and mark him as a "Foe". While you are signed in to the forum, you'll never see his posts again. That's exactly what I've done and it works like a charm.

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Post by Purebeads » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:08 pm

Gocreative, by extrapolation you are talking down to every person on this thread who agrees with my position.

You don't realize how out-of-proportion your reactions are. A disagreement over what is the best kind of menu should not evoke so much vitriol.

Sorry, marc_cole, in my own way I am prolonging this. I'll shut up now.

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Post by gocreative » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:18 pm

Purebeads wrote:Gocreative, by extrapolation you are talking down to every person on this thread who agrees with my position.

You don't realize how out-of-proportion your reactions are. A disagreement over what is the best kind of menu should not evoke so much vitriol.
You obviously still haven't grasped what I've now told you several times. Your opinion is a perfectly valid one (and thus, so are those who agree with you). What I have a problem with is your CONTINUED disagreement on the matter of who is more experienced with what MOST users prefer/expect with regard to menus. I've repeatedly explained why I am in a well informed position to comment on the matter. You, on the other hand, are not. So while your opinion is more than welcome, once I'd explained WHY you were wrong then you should have let the matter rest and accepted that I know more than you do. That's just a plain old fact.

And THAT is why I've spoken down to YOU personally, because you're continuing to debate something that you're not qualified to comment on (i.e. you're commenting on what MOST users prefer/expect, and you don't know that -- but I do!).

Thus, my reactions are entirely in proportion to how frustrating it is when someone who doesn't know the facts tries to tell you that they do!

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Post by gocreative » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:55 pm

marc_cole wrote:
gocreative wrote:You're being ridiculous...
Just accept that you ARE an 'inexperienced idiot' in comparison to me...
I trust this settles the matter...
Just in case anyone else is tired of reading the useless drivel this person has filled this topic with, just go to your User Control Panel and mark him as a "Foe". While you are signed in to the forum, you'll never see his posts again. That's exactly what I've done and it works like a charm.
What a childish reaction, to block all of my posts based on one discussion that he didn't like. I don't see how my comments were any more 'useless' than those of Purebeads.

Q/i2Paq, feel free to delete any/all of my posts in this topic if you find that they are not within the forum rules or do not contribute to the discussion.

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Post by albx » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:16 pm

Sorry if this have been already discussed, i'm wondering if in the next release will be added some customers fields, like vat number for wholesales, and other additional fields, or we will need to mod it?
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Post by OC2PS » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:27 pm

gocreative wrote:
Purebeads wrote:I wasn't going to jump in again, but you just don't seem to get it. There is no such thing as novices and experts when it comes to using the internet. We all do it, and my opinion is just as valid as your opinion. My view that hover menus (or whatever they are called) are a bad thing is based on a decade of using them. You need to stop talking down to me and the rest of us as if we were all inexperienced idiots.
You're being ridiculous. Of course there are novices and experts when it comes to using the internet. Would you trust the opinion of someone who had only been to one website over the opinion of someone who had been to one million? Of course you wouldn't.
It depends what the opinion is about. If it's about usability, the opinion of the person who has gone to one website may actually be more valid than that of one who has been to a million - the latter person may have seen a common mistake and accepted it as a good thing (in other words, just because a lot of people do it doesn't mean it's right), while the first one is unlikely to have such a bias.

I guess what I am saying is this - just because the other person's opinion is not in line with your own is no reason to ridicule them.

Also, the biggest problem for usability on the web is that web designers and developers design for themselves. Self-reference is a cardinal sin because you aren't designing the sites for you. Even if you are the million website visiting *expert*, you need to design for the 90% of your visitors who have only visited one site.

Regarding the specific issue of menus, Purebeads made a valid point and it applies to a large proportion of web users. In fact, some of these concerns are addressed in Jacob Nielsen's discussion - hover menu present a usability problem...and many sites implement them without understanding the problem, leading to people like Purebeads to say that hover sites in and of themselves are bad for usability. Nielsen says some concerns can be addressed by adding timers, solving the diagonal problem, etc. Diagonal problem is a big one in hover menus and even bigger if the hover menus are in a vertical format as opposed to a horizontal format.

Read:
Jacob Nielsen wrote: Drop-down menus: Use Sparingly

Drop-down menus are often more trouble than they are worth and can be confusing

Increasingly, designers employ drop-down menus for a variety of different purposes, including
  • Command menus, which initiate an action based on the option users select.
  • Navigation menus, which take users to a new location.
  • Form fill-in, which lets users select an option to enter into a form field.
  • Attribute selection, which lets users choose a value from a menu of possible values.
Only the last use conforms to the classic interpretation of the GUI widget used for drop-down menus in current Web browsers.
They can potentially create many issues:
  • Open by inadvertent mouse movements or placements
  • Flicker
  • Hide options
  • Accessibility
  • Problems on mobile phones
  • Diagonal problem - when user is trying to get to an option from the root, and the path takes him out of the root, then he can keep trying to go to the option for hours because option disappears as soon as mouse pointer goes out of root
Mega menus are not inherently evil, but they need to be done with a lot of care.
Last edited by OC2PS on Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by gocreative » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:41 pm

sooskriszta wrote:It depends what the opinion is about. If it's about usability, the opinion of the person who has gone to one website may actually be more valid than that of one who has been to a million - the latter person may have seen a common mistake and accepted it as a good thing (in other words, just because a lot of people do it doesn't mean it's right), while the first one is unlikely to have such a bias.

I guess what I am saying is this - just because the other person's opinion is not in line with your own is no reason to ridicule them.
My comment about someone visiting one website and another visiting one million websites was simply an example to illustrate my point that there are differences between novice and expert internet users. In any case, I went on to say a few times that I was actually trying to make the point that I have a great amount of experience with designing websites (with user input and testing), and clearly Purebeads does not. Therefore I'm in a much better position to comment on what most users expect with regard to website functionality.

As I said to Purebeads, I wasn't debating his opinion but specifically whether he had the required knowledge to tell me (or anyone else in my line of work) what is preferred by most users. And the fact is that he does not. The only reason I was disrespectful to him (which I admitted that I overstepped the mark on) was because he continued to discuss the topic even after being set straight. That's just plain annoying, not to mention stubborn and even egotistical. I'm sure anyone who has been on this forum longer than five seconds would know that I've always been courteous to other users, and in fact often have been the person standing up for individuals. But Purebeads has really got to pull his head in, in my opinion.
sooskriszta wrote:Also, the biggest problem for usability on the web is that web designers and developers design for themselves. Self-reference is a cardinal sin because you aren't designing the sites for you. Even if you are the million website visiting *expert*, you need to design for the 90% of your visitors who have only visited one site.
True, but as I said I've worked with many users in designing hundreds of websites, and I've also conducted user testing, and so on (not going to retype it all a fourth time). So I am well educated on the subject.
sooskriszta wrote:Regarding the specific issue of menus, Purebeads made a valid point and it applies to a large proportion of web users. In fact, some of these concerns are addressed in Jacob Nielsen's discussion - hover menu present a usability problem...and many sites implement them without understanding the problem, leading to people like Purebeads to say that hover sites in and of themselves are bad for usability. Nielsen says some concerns can be addressed by adding timers, solving the diagonal problem, etc. Diagonal problem is a big one in hover menus and even bigger if the hover menus are in a vertical format as opposed to a horizontal format.
He did make a valid point about the issues, but those issues can (and therefore should) be addressed. Of course I wouldn't expect to implement any menu that has issues, so if they can be overcome then I firmly believe that a hover-based menu should be retained by OpenCart.

I don't know if it's the language barrier, if I'm having a bad couple of days trying to explain myself or what, but it seems as though everything I've said so far in this discussion has either been taken well out of context, misunderstood or just plain missed. Hopefully I've clarified the situation now.

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Post by OC2PS » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:53 pm

gocreative wrote:As I said to Purebeads, I wasn't debating his opinion but specifically whether he had the required knowledge to tell me (or anyone else in my line of work) what is preferred by most users.
Now you are being facetious ... the guy said a few times that he is not speaking for most users, but neither can you.
Purebeads wrote:Please don't tell me what "most people" like. You don't have a clue, just as I don't have a clue.
If you wish to have the sort of authority or credibility that you claim, then you'll have to do better than boast. Please point us to these supposed studies where *most* users prefer hover menus.

Also remember the second cardinal rule of usability: don't listen to what users say, watch what they do.

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Post by i2Paq » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:01 pm

gocreative wrote:Q/i2Paq, feel free to delete any/all of my posts in this topic if you find that they are not within the forum rules or do not contribute to the discussion.
I think that both of you should let the "matter" rest ;)

As everyone is entitled to their own opinion so are they to judge for them-selfs who they think has the best knowledge on certain matters :)

So lets get back on-topic about this Sneak preview on 1.5.0 *ALPHA*

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Post by gocreative » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:05 pm

sooskriszta wrote:
gocreative wrote:As I said to Purebeads, I wasn't debating his opinion but specifically whether he had the required knowledge to tell me (or anyone else in my line of work) what is preferred by most users.
Now you are being facetious ... the guy said a few times that he is not speaking for most users, but neither can you.
And as I said a few times, yes I can. That's what case studies and user testing provides - a better idea of what MOST users are looking for/expecting.
sooskriszta wrote:Please point us to these supposed studies where *most* users prefer hover menus.
Who said they're online for public access? Many of the case studies were conducted in-house at my workplace and I don't have the legal right to share this data with anyone. Same goes for user testing - I can't provide details of these tests to the general public. Moreover, I'm not that desperate to prove my credentials that I would bother scanning in any of the documents and publishing them online just to appease a few people on a forum.

On top of that, I also didn't say that I had a plethora of case studies that were specifically devoted to hover menus. I'd have to trawl through years of individual testing and reports to extract the exact results that prove it.

I really don't understand why I'm STILL having this same discussion. This truly is ridiculous. And as such, I won't reply to any further posts on the matter (thanks i2Paq).
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Post by bajaber » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:17 pm

I believe everybody's opinion is valid, whether they started browsing the internet yesterday or 12 years ago. In fact, when I want end user feedback, I would rather listen to the opinion of someone who just started browsing than someone who has been using the web for many years, as this is pure opinion which has not been influenced by other places where it works.

Who knows maybe I think I am the "experienced" user, even though i have been exposed to so many shit websites, that I have become accustomed to it and assumed it is the norm? Or maybe I have so many years experience of arguing to justify my decisions regardless of whether they are right or wrong, to the extent that the end users have come to accept my conclusions to avoid quarelling? So I end up thinking I am always right ?

If I have been having sex for 12 years with many different people and still suffering from premature ejaculation, it doesn't mean that I am more qualified to discuss sex related issues than someone who only sleeps with his wife for a few years, but who had learned to control himself.

Bottom line : There is rarely a right or wrong approach. It all come downs to what works. Megamenus might be useful in one application but not in another. Heck, they might even be good /bad on the same application depending on the theme / template used. Personally, I hate them (due to my bad experiences), but do I use them in my apps, hell yeah.

Going to all this extent to the extent of outrightly trying to get people to accept you are better than them.....kinda sad and primitive, even if you are right.
Last edited by bajaber on Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Purebeads » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:17 pm

i2paq, you'll notice that I've written about one-third as much as Gocreative has. He's the one who is ranting. However, it's hard not to respond to someone who actually thinks he can "set" me "straight" without knowing much about me or my level of knowledge.

I said something above that no one responded to. I think it's important that the merchant have control over the information given on the product page:

brand
product code
sku
reward points
availability
no. of items in stock
shipping time
stars
etc.

In my case, my products have no brands, and the shipping time is the same for every order, so that information is extraneous. I don't even know what reward points are, and I'm putting private information in the sku slot -- so I wouldn't want that to show either. In short, I hope that the little blurb of information to the right of the picture will be customizable.

I'm still impressed by how massive this upgrade is going to be.

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Post by OC2PS » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:41 pm

gocreative wrote:I'm not that desperate to prove my credentials that I would bother scanning in any of the documents and publishing them online just to appease a few people on a forum.
Of course not. You are only desperate enough to boast about it repeatedly on a thread about a completely different topic.

Back on topic:

1.5.0 is great. The interface *looks* clean and slick.

I have a question about the links:
On top right
Home | Bookmark | Gift Vourcher | Wish List | Contact Us | Sitemap
On grey bar under black bar
Home | Login | My Account | Checkout
At the bottom
Information

About Us
Delivery Charges
Privacy Policy
Terms & Conditions
Customer Service

Contact Us
Returns
Site Map
Extras

Wish List
Gift Vouchers
Affiliates
Specials
Account

Login
Order History
Newsletter
Now, I'm sure Daniel has put them in their specific places for a reason. However, not all of us may agree that the grouping is logical, or that repetition of some links in multiple places is a good thing. So my question is: Will there be a way for shop admin to determine (from admin panel) which links go where?

This question also goes for
On grey bar under black bar
Shopping Cart: x item(s) | Currency | Language
Last edited by OC2PS on Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by OC2PS » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:52 pm

Purebeads wrote:I said something above that no one responded to. I think it's important that the merchant have control over the information given on the product page:

stars
Q said you can disable reviews altogether if you want to (1.4.9 onwards)

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Post by pldtm » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:09 pm

hi,

nice to see progresses since 1.4.9.

I've never worked with OC yet, but i'm planning to start a project with it (1.5).
I saw the delivery date shown on the product page but i didn't find how to manage it in the backend.
Can someone explain how it works, please



Thanks a lot


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