@ forks, spoons and knives ...

@ forks, spoons and knives ...

fork ... zencart is a fork
spoon ... CRELoaded since it heaps in a bunch of mods
knife ... can anybody come up with a good example Maybe the original modx when it was still a solution to solve etomite's problems ...

@ the zen art of forking ...
You seek to correct the code harmony that the developer gods have tampered with ... Those pictures of the osc team drinking it up really helps when you think of all the time they had to produce a new release.

@ the zen art of spooning ...
You seek to fill in the gap that the developer gods just don't come around to do themselves or can't feel bothered to do.

@ the zen art of carving with a knife (the way it cuts is interesting) ...
You decide that your code can fix issues that the developer gods just ignore or can't be bothered about so ...

a.) you start carving away and then either get accepted by the community and you split bread with the developer gods

b.) your instrument has no effect and is useless as a butter knife to commit suicide (however, beware a butter knife is actually a very capable tool especially as a flat head screwdriver) ... the story could continue and depends on the decision to sharpen the blade

c.) you pull out the carving ninja knife and teach that turkey a lesson or two ... combine this with a fork and you have a slain the beast ... the glory is yours!

@ opencart
To be honest, I would try to keep the community as happy as humanly possible. (NO, that does not mean to release code early just to appease the masses.)

Why?

1.) Lot's of people here who don't speak English. Somebody and some have branched off with their own domain ... opencart.jp is one I know of that has virtually has NO connection to the main site beyond using the brand. The main Japanese dev has no clue what you are all doing.

2.) opencart is gpl. Is it not in itself a fork? Friendly one but still a fork.

3.) Lot's of things really need to be looked after that are not being done right now. (issues have covered oodles of times). People are only patient to a certain extent. Look at osc and the mass exodus to zen and magneto for example.

4.) People do want to contribute but are locked out. Go watch that google SVN guys video where they go on about open source and how they feel about sharing code. Lot's people have been willing to help and have even supplied patches. After being turned away, notice how their posts go down... and then they just disappear.

@ be a community ...
Ostracize people for providing a solution only builds bad will. These are the prime candidates that will decide on getting out their Ninja blades ... show downs are always fun to watch from the sidelines, but what happens when you become the loosing side to the upstart? I wonder how much revenue osc lost by running a bad ship?

How about accept the fact, try to keep them in the loop to use the same code base, accept their contributions and protect yourself by keeping the enemy closer to you than your friends (Sun Tsu, The Art of War). By accepting these folks you will have increased your user base and you will be able to pull those people in who start with the CRELoaded version because they realize the core code is still better and they don't have to live with what a "FULL" offers them.

People, think carefully ... opencart is like a samurai Katana, you can cut and jab with it but in the hands of master you can slice people in half with it ... a tool used properly is very very awesome!

Who is going to master the blade?

SapporoGuy wrote:deleted babble ...

1.) Lot's of people here who don't speak English. Somebody and some have branched off with their own domain ... opencart.jp is one I know of that has virtually has NO connection to the main site beyond using the brand. The main Japanese dev has no clue what you are all doing.

if they aren't following opencart and have no clue what we are doing then they need to change the name, and why would they want to use the same name if it's not the same product? just trying to steal a bit of opencarts momentum?

2.) opencart is gpl. Is it not in itself a fork? Friendly one but still a fork.

something being gpl does not mean it is a fork. It just means that is is susceptible to forking. Zen and CRELoaded are forks of oscommerce, but as far as I know oscommerce is not a fork of anything else. If you started coding from scratch then whatever you create is not a fork.

3.) Lot's of things really need to be looked after that are not being done right now. (issues have covered oodles of times). People are only patient to a certain extent. Look at osc and the mass exodus to zen and magneto for example.

while that may be true to an extent with opencart you are talking about a few months while the dev is working on a major new version, whereas zen/osc neither have any any update of any substance in what 5 years?

4.) People do want to contribute but are locked out. Go watch that google SVN guys video where they go on about open source and how they feel about sharing code. Lot's people have been willing to help and have even supplied patches. After being turned away, notice how their posts go down... and then they just disappear.

I'll somewhat agree with this one. It needs to become easier to contribute, but you can't just open the floodgates or you will end up with a ton of crappy code in the core, or worse yet malicious code.

1.) Sorry I should have written that differently. He does credit and link to the main domain.
However, the issue is not whether this is a fork or even a branch, but rather the condition that is being brought about due to:
1.) community management which includes communication among the different languages
2.) lack of support by the base code such that it covers different countries and their unique requirements

Also, if people have no clue what you are doing or go around to fix what they need to for their country/language but don't "speaka yowa languigi" then they should be blamed or forced into dumping opencart from the name?
Silly buggers, silly buggers ...

The situation is created by the core code. These people at least spread the names and offer support that is not provided but yet allow you to keep your fame.

So, to what extent are modifications no longer the same product?
The only one that I can see is Q's vqmod which keeps the core intact.

2.) I should have stuck with the friendly take over.
However, what is the situation with opencart then?
Is Daniel an original developer?
Does not opencart contain code from the original series?

@ clarification
- Zen is 100% a fork. Due basically to lack code submission ability and lack of Harald listening to developers (essentially draconian control). Release issues were still early back then and didn't really come about in any of the conversations about whether to fork or not.

...However, according to your standards, zen would not be a fork since it started with the core osc code by 1 of the developers on the internal team later joined with another (was she on the team .... need to check the wayback machine on that since my memory fails me regarding her). So, is zen a fork?

Please clarify since I thought a fork was a split from the main coding team to form your own. Actually, opencart is more of a fork that zen from my understanding of the wikipedia definition and my understanding of opencart history.

- CRELoaded was not originally a fork. It was just one of 3 at the time that offered "bloat" to fulfill the needs of users especially those of clients that were being hosted by him.

Hence within my "babble" about forks, spoons and knives ... CRE was a spoon. In a way like what osworx is offering to the community for opencart.


3.) I am not the only one that brings up these types of issues.
Has anybody ever expected Daniel to do it all? Please ...
Why do you like supporting a limiting belief? I would rather see opencart grow like mad and be the de'facto standard. Therefore, I refuse to come up with reasons for opencart as to why this and that aren't done.

4.) CVS, SVN, Github ...
malicious code !!!
1.) Any project is open to releasing malicious.
2.) version control allows you the chance to audit the code before submitting to the main trunk
3.) Current opencart release system is being only audited by 1 person it seems. People will install code on their site only later to find problems. Read number 1 in this section again.
4.) Code on the forums could be malicious too. Yeah, ok, use at your risk.
5.) The extensions being released are not being audited. (Yeah, I know that this virtually impossible to check.)
What about the issue of how "some" these extensions do introduce crappy code into the core, then?

So why pull out the bogeyman and try to scare people about crappy or malicious code?
I don't get it ...

I agree, only a fool would allow the floodgates to open.
So, pick a version control system, aren't they what version control about?

SapporoGuy wrote: ...However, according to your standards, zen would not be a fork since it started with the core osc code by 1 of the developers on the internal team later joined with another (was she on the team .... need to check the wayback machine on that since my memory fails me regarding her). So, is zen a fork?

of course zen is a fork osc and zen are both active and supposedly being developed. Daniel may have taken over maintaining opencart from someone, but the original ceased development and then continued with Daniel I'm assuming this was with the knowledge and permission of the original author not really sure as I wasn't around during that time, but at any rate it is one codebase moving in one direction.

Please clarify since I thought a fork was a split from the main coding team to form your own. Actually, opencart is more of a fork that zen from my understanding of the wikipedia definition and my understanding of opencart history.

yes you just used basically the same definition I did, but it just simply doesn't apply. You can still download osc and zen which are both supposedly in active development two separate code paths or a fork. where is this mythical other program from which opencart forked? If there is such a beast it's certainly not common knowledge.

- CRELoaded was not originally a fork. It was just one of 3 at the time that offered "bloat" to fulfill the needs of users especially those of clients that were being hosted by him.

Hence within my "babble" about forks, spoons and knives ... CRE was a spoon. In a way like what osworx is offering to the community for opencart.

yes and we all see where that spoon went. A bug riddle POS maintained by one of the biggest money grubbers on the net.

3.) I am not the only one that brings up these types of issues.
Has anybody ever expected Daniel to do it all? Please ...
Why do you like supporting a limiting belief? I would rather see opencart grow like mad and be the de'facto standard. Therefore, I refuse to come up with reasons for opencart as to why this and that aren't done.

yes sounds great, and I would certainly like to see the core development team grow, but if you try to start that right now and inject 100 new devs we will never see a new version. Granted Daniel needs to loosen his grip a bit, but if things don't grow slowly in a controlled manner it will all fall apart very quickly.

4.) CVS, SVN, Github ...
malicious code !!!
1.) Any project is open to releasing malicious.

of course they are, but at this point I would say opencart is about the least likely as there are only two people who could possibly introduce it.

2.) version control allows you the chance to audit the code before submitting to the main trunk
3.) Current opencart release system is being only audited by 1 person it seems. People will install code on their site only later to find problems. Read number 1 in this section again.

ok so it has bugs show me a project any project and I mean that any software project every made in history that doesn't have bugs even after final release. that means someone installed it on their system and found bugs. and I did reread 1 and didn't see what it had to do with bugs.

4.) Code on the forums could be malicious too. Yeah, ok, use at your risk.
5.) The extensions being released are not being audited. (Yeah, I know that this virtually impossible to check.)
What about the issue of how "some" these extensions do introduce crappy code into the core, then?

that's like saying how come there are crappy programs for microsoft or even your beloved apple as much as they try to control everything there are still crap programs written for their OS and they have billions of dollars and tons of people to throw at the problem. Mods may change the core files and may introduce crappy code on the sites that use them, but it's not in the core in opencart itself There is no way to ever keep people from screwing the code all up on their own sites if they want.

So why pull out the bogeyman and try to scare people about crappy or malicious code?
I don't get it ...

because I know from reading the forums that this is the exact reason Daniel doesn't want to make it easier for people to commit code he doesn't want the code to become a big pile of crap. If you don't monitor the people working on the core and keep it to people you know write quality code and just allow anyone to commit code into the core any time they feel like it you will wind up with just that.

SapporoGuy wrote:errr. moderator, please split this thread since this is way too off topic from the original OP and thread.
Sorry ..

Yes that tends to happen a lot since you've arrived...

Qphoria wrote:

SapporoGuy wrote:errr. moderator, please split this thread since this is way too off topic from the original OP and thread.
Sorry ..

Yes that tends to happen a lot since you've arrived...

As you noticed I did ask to have the thread split.

Could you elaborate more on your comment since I'm not sure how to take it at the moment.

@ opencart / fork

I did say it was a "friendly" one since that is what I have come to understand.
Mythical beast? That would depend on word play regarding the word "fork".
I was thinking of v0.2 when I wrote that.

@ dev team
Why would you want to introduce 100s of devs out the blue without a proper version control system like I stated?

@ malicious code
I should have used the word "bug" but bugs can be malicious so ... difference depends on severity ....
Of course, everybody knows code will have bugs or something or another that will need to be fixed or that could be improved upon.

If you don't monitor the people working on the core and keep it to people you know write quality code and just allow anyone to commit code into the core any time they feel like it you will wind up with just that.

a.) more eyes = the ability to reduce bugs and malicious code
b.) version control ...
c.) who monitors the monitors who are the developers?
- People will foolishly release carts with the latest release. Of course, the end user should know the problems that will occur. Hence, my argument for "this and that" to prevent more out slashes and bad reputation.

Mods may change the core files and may introduce crappy code on the sites that use them, but it's not in the core in opencart itself

That is why I wrote points 1-5. But also it could be in the core from the beginning.

@ controlled manner
Yeah, I can agree that things could go bad. But, that also depends on your plan and course of actions.

@ supplemental outside sources (spoons)

yes and we all see where that spoon went. A bug riddle POS maintained by one of the biggest money grubbers on the net

I was using CRE as a reference and then osworx as a opencart reference.
So ... who are you referring to and how did that project end up as? Or do you have another project in mind?


X,
I really think that if you look at it...
We are both trying to keep the best in mind for opencart.
It's just that our approaches and possibly goals are different.