[1.4.2] Removed the url class? Anymore unnecessary changes?

Nobody wants to fork the project because it can be extremely counter-productive. But so can willy-nilly code changing in point releases. The code may be a better choice than it was, but at this point it can no longer be "DanielCart" and has to start conforming to some sort of public project rules for the sake of progress and popularity. Pulling out classes and functions in a point release is counter-productive

i2Paq wrote:

peteVA wrote:I've even gotten a nasty email from the "owner". Says I should not have posted the link and would I please remove it.

A couple of days ago he flatly denied it was OC, wondered if I was crazy or something to confuse them. At least the others who tried admitted the source.

Even now getting further emails asking for "consideration".

He's just stealing some others work!

Well, you can't really steal GPL work. It's my understanding he's only violating it if he removes the license/attribution.

I want to know where they got the asian from who gives the speech presentation.

peteVA wrote: Would be nice to see some fork it off and fix it, taking care of some of the major faults that have been discussed over the last few weeks and setting out with an organized system of versions and planned changes.

If yo've not noticed i have been releasing version every 2 days with fixes that people have reported.

Daniel wrote:

peteVA wrote: Would be nice to see some fork it off and fix it, taking care of some of the major faults that have been discussed over the last few weeks and setting out with an organized system of versions and planned changes.

If yo've not noticed i have been releasing version every 2 days with fixes that people have reported.

Yes, and I believe that is a lot of the problem. You are fixing, but also changing the core just about every time. No one can depend on anything being constant.

I've been putting off people who have already paid me for hosting from installing OC until things settle down. You yourself talk about the small little things, and there will always be someone of them. It's the changing the database, changing the structure, the sort of things a couple of your greatest supporters / mods are now complaining about.

I think of it as Tangent Cart. You just seem to go off on a tangent and there is no clear method, just a new idea.

I install carts for a living. I am no coder, I just set them up and help people get selling. But, I've dealt with dozens of them, demo'd probably 50 and always looking, that is how I found that one above. I feel like there is so much potential here, but it is being squandered because there is no plan, it is all hit or miss, fix that, screw what else happens or how many installs have to be modified to keep up.

If it were up to me I'd say go back to 1.4.0 and fix that - without the multi-store. Just get the bugs out to where it was possible for someone who never edited a file in their life to install the cart and run a basic business with no problems.

That's the bottom line - run a business with no problems, but post after post, thread after thread is pretty much common, day to day stuff that is not working as it should. Not a 1 in 1,000 specific application, but just day to day put it up, add some options and start selling.

Why not get that first?

peteVA wrote:If it were up to me I'd say go back to 1.4.0 and fix that - without the multi-store. Just get the bugs out to where it was possible for someone who never edited a file in their life to install the cart and run a basic business with no problems.

There's nothing really stopping you. I think at one point I'd rolled up a version of 1.4.0 with around 14 different bug fixes in it.

Right now I don't see any reason to go back. Even the people who really dislike the new url classes are just modding the latest releases. If you want to wait for the dust to settle to help minimize client support, go for it. But I don't know of any issue with 1.4.4 that's going to cause the cart to be fundamentally broken for users.

Does it make sense to start a new project shop with Opencart 1.4.0 or must wait until the noise settles around the new and appear necessary modules for the new version?

Doesn't hurt to wait if you can. If you're going to start now using 1.4.0 will just make it harder to upgrade in the future so use 1.4.4.

peteVA wrote:

Daniel wrote:

peteVA wrote: Would be nice to see some fork it off and fix it, taking care of some of the major faults that have been discussed over the last few weeks and setting out with an organized system of versions and planned changes.

If yo've not noticed i have been releasing version every 2 days with fixes that people have reported.

Yes, and I believe that is a lot of the problem. You are fixing, but also changing the core just about every time. No one can depend on anything being constant.

I've been putting off people who have already paid me for hosting from installing OC until things settle down. You yourself talk about the small little things, and there will always be someone of them. It's the changing the database, changing the structure, the sort of things a couple of your greatest supporters / mods are now complaining about.

I think of it as Tangent Cart. You just seem to go off on a tangent and there is no clear method, just a new idea.

I install carts for a living. I am no coder, I just set them up and help people get selling. But, I've dealt with dozens of them, demo'd probably 50 and always looking, that is how I found that one above. I feel like there is so much potential here, but it is being squandered because there is no plan, it is all hit or miss, fix that, screw what else happens or how many installs have to be modified to keep up.

If it were up to me I'd say go back to 1.4.0 and fix that - without the multi-store. Just get the bugs out to where it was possible for someone who never edited a file in their life to install the cart and run a basic business with no problems.

That's the bottom line - run a business with no problems, but post after post, thread after thread is pretty much common, day to day stuff that is not working as it should. Not a 1 in 1,000 specific application, but just day to day put it up, add some options and start selling.

Why not get that first?

I have not chanegd the core since 1.4.1.

There was no 1.4.1
its 1.4.0 and 1.4.3

rph wrote:Right now I don't see any reason to go back. Even the people who really dislike the new url classes are just modding the latest releases. If you want to wait for the dust to settle to help minimize client support, go for it. But I don't know of any issue with 1.4.4 that's going to cause the cart to be fundamentally broken for users.

I'm going to try and break it. Seems like a challenge I can't ignore.

But what to you is not a big deal is overwhelming to first time cart users. Make 14 mods to a script? These are people who have to have their hands held to set up FTP. And what about those who have no idea of what a url class is? They certainly aren't going to mod them, they have no idea how. So they will be left alone, but what may happen next? Will they be back to square one when 1.4.6 or .7 comes out and now modding must be done?

You did hit the nail squarely on the head with "when the dust settles", but no one knows when that will happen, or the final result and I am uncomfortable telling a newbie to use OC and then have to modify a database or edit files. Thanks to Q there is some sort of automated upgrade, but that should not be an outside project, it should be part of each new release.

The unfortunate truth is this is not a good script for a newbie cart owner.

I'll do a fresh install of the latest version and see where I can find it's broken. Simply using it never editing a file.

its clear things won't be added as part of the core. We can complain all day to an immovable object or just make it our own by releasing mods.

I also just noticed the helper image class was removed and replaced by tool/image as well.. another extremely significant change.

peteVA wrote:But what to you is not a big deal is overwhelming to first time cart users. Make 14 mods to a script? These are people who have to have their hands held to set up FTP. And what about those who have no idea of what a url class is? They certainly aren't going to mod them, they have no idea how. So they will be left alone, but what may happen next? Will they be back to square one when 1.4.6 or .7 comes out and now modding must be done?

It was your idea Pete. If you're selling OpenCart as a service it would really be up to you to roll out a custom package for your customers or hire someone who can put it together. Me, I wouldn't recommend using it at all. There are way more documented bugs in 1.4.0 than the current version.

The unfortunate truth is this is not a good script for a newbie cart owner.

Complete malarky. There's been one minor database change since 1.4.1. Everything else has been bug fixes.

OpenCart is advanced and easy to use. The people who have had issues with changes are developers, not users.

I don't sell OC. I sell hosting and recommend various carts, depending on the needs of the user.

And it is not just the coders with problems. Take a serious look at the cries for help. Many are from users who can't get something to work or get error messages. Of course, with no documentation there is little they can do except come here.

I don't support any cart. I will install whatever they want, except magento, at no cost, but they have to buy a paid for cart if that is what they want. The freebies I install free. So it's not for money, it's for the benefit of my hosting clients, and also myself as a cart owner, that I bring up these things.

I agree it is an easy to use cart. I'd just like to see it truly stable where a mod will work for sure, where a template will work for sure, where the import / export will work (I also wonder why that is not built in, as it should be).

Can someone tell me the underlying logic behind changing
1.4.0:
...
'href' => $this->url->http('common/home'),
...

to 1.4.4:
...
'href' => HTTP_SERVER . 'index.php?route=common/home',
...

Having a function to control whether a url is http or https has an advantage over a define variable.

maslow788 wrote:Can someone tell me the underlying logic behind changing

Nope. Apparently the url class was stupid, because no other project uses a smiliar class.

peteVA wrote:I don't sell OC. I sell hosting and recommend various carts, depending on the needs of the user.

I don't think it's unfair to label that selling OpenCart as a service (rather than product). Just a matter of semantics, I suppose.

And it is not just the coders with problems. Take a serious look at the cries for help. Many are from users who can't get something to work or get error messages. Of course, with no documentation there is little they can do except come here.

Come on Pete. I don't see you helping people in those threads.

The majority of problems out there aren't from a clean install. They're from people attempting to upgrade from old 1.3.x and even 1.2.x stores. Admittedly it's not a novice friendly procedure but some things just aren't.

I completely agree with you on the documentation. It's sparse. The wiki could use a little (lot of) community work on it.

rph wrote:

peteVA wrote:I don't sell OC. I sell hosting and recommend various carts, depending on the needs of the user.

I don't think it's unfair to label that selling OpenCart as a service (rather than product). Just a matter of semantics, I suppose.

I give them links to a demo cart I have set up for CubeCart v3, OpenCart v1.3.4, OSC and Zen. Then tell them to take their choice.

I simply install the cart, I do not support it. I give them a link to the appropriate forums.

How can you say I am selling anything except my hosting service?

If they want to use GooglePay or USPS or ship to 6 zones, I will tell them which will do what they want. I do try and spend some time finding their needs and pointing them in the right direction, but I do it all for $4.49 per month hosting fee. Certainly not a profit center.

I've been selling online from carts since 2001, never sold on ebay and live full time off the net. I make a good living at it and spend most of my time advising others on how to get started. I'm a reseller for several paid for carts, but never sell them. I feel like OC could be THE cart of the decade, if there were some organization to it. I just hate to see it spinning wheels as it is.

As far as helping others, I don't know how. I am not a coder, I can't tell someone who gets an error message what to do, because I do not know myself. I am a user. I respond here as a user. I have quit making any serious suggestions on my own because the Grand Poobah of Open Cart is not a user and blows off anything that might make it easier for someone who doesn't know how to edit scripts.

I simply hate to see this as an "almost complete, finish it yourself" product where things almost work. Even with the 1.3.2 and 1.3.4 versions you could pretty much have it work out of the box, get a mod or template that fit right in and be off and selling in a day or two. Now, I'm just not sure that is the case.

rph wrote:I completely agree with you on the documentation. It's sparse. The wiki could use a little (lot of) community work on it.

Me to, but the WIKI is useless (more like userunfriendly) to add info to.
Otherwise I would have probably would have started already.
On the other hand, I do not see anybody else add info to it except Q.

dbstr wrote:

maslow788 wrote:Can someone tell me the underlying logic behind changing

Nope. Apparently the url class was stupid, because no other project uses a smiliar class.

Having one function for routing URL's thorugh is the logical option, What if someone wanted some custom functionality, perform some form of action on URL's before they are returned - Not possible anymore...

Not only that, but it's so much cleaner.