Post by Qphoria » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:52 am

Shipping Estimator is a good thing to have in the core

Paypal Express and Google Checkout will likely never be in the core. The system was made modular for a reason and it has been shown that having 3rd parties maintain the billions of payment gateways out there is much faster than updating any of the payment gateways in the core. I think the core has too many as it is because we don't really maintain them and most aren't even used. Any future payment modules will likely be left to the community

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Post by alex1 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:27 am

Qphoria wrote:Shipping Estimator is a good thing to have in the core

Paypal Express and Google Checkout will likely never be in the core. The system was made modular for a reason and it has been shown that having 3rd parties maintain the billions of payment gateways out there is much faster than updating any of the payment gateways in the core. I think the core has too many as it is because we don't really maintain them and most aren't even used. Any future payment modules will likely be left to the community
I'm not gonna try to look for it, but I do remember that Daniel mentioning Google Checkout was going to be in 1.5

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Post by Qphoria » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:39 am

Again.. when someone says something 3 months ago... and I say something 3 min ago... I'd suggest you take the newer comment. :stick:

Google Checkout will NOT be in 1.5.0. Guaranteed

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Post by Daniel » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:58 am

Google checkout won't be finished in the next version. I'm planning on releasing an alpha version in the next few days with some features missing. I think once first version is finished I can do some quick releases every few days with new features added.

At the moment I keep getting side tracked with other things. Like today I have been working on stopping fraudulent transactions happening from the extension section.

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Post by SapporoGuy » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:22 am

@ Daniel

Good luck on the move to Hong Kong. IF you fly in to Sapporo on business or fun, I'll take you out on town.
ahem ... could be a Vegas night if you want :laugh:

@ payment gateways
Just because you want it doesn't mean that I want it.
Can't you just add them like the rest?

If not, why don't you donate to have them put in.

@ compete with other carts
You don't have to be feature per feature the same.
If that is all you were aiming at, you would end up being the other cart.

ridiculous.

However, providing something that they don't have that is deal breaker for oodles of people (note, US is not the world) then I'd say you be getting more points and more votes, if that was your goal.

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Post by qahar » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:23 am

Daniel wrote:... I'm planning on releasing an alpha version in the next few days with some features missing. I think once first version is finished I can do some quick releases every few days with new features added.
At the moment I keep getting side tracked with other things. Like today I have been working on stopping fraudulent transactions happening from the extension section.
Wow, this is good news. I hope you can focus on to finish some unfinished features, and does not interfere with requests or complaints from other people.

Thanks..

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Post by SapporoGuy » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:30 pm

I slept on this:

@ Daniel
I don't know if you have ever lived in Hong Kong or made a big international move or even if you speak Cantonese ...
The following is based on being a newbie...
But I say it would be very wise to a lot yourself at least 1 month to get used to the new world.
I live in Northern Japan in Sapporo and when I was 22 it was hard enough to accept that life is no longer what you know it.
This is Asia and not some Western country. Pros and Cons either way it is a new adventure.

Is wife and children going to?
If not, it will be tough to be away but then again Japanese men live for years at a time in different cities because of work and they .. well ... they :joker:

Cheers and I really do hope that this is a move up for you.

@ 1.5 release
So, instead of rushing out a release to appease the animals.

For reasons based on just moving ....
I'd say do it in steps:
1.) release a alpha to a select group on testers chosen by the 2 of you.
2.) let them pound on the base code and provide feedback and / or make changes
3.) either introduce the new features or let them add them in

At the moment (not knowing what or why you are going to be in Hong Kong) for but I'd say, the current plan that you proposed is going to cause a lot more problems than not.

For reasons on the possibility that Daniel is going to be a "Hong Kong Bachelor" ....
I'd say the way of doing business alone is going to cause problems.
You go out to dinner after work, then get the drinks, then slosh your way on the train or taxi ...
If you don't do it then you don't build the business relationships that so much built over those pints of beers ...

* The above probably needs correction by somebody has done or does the Hong Kong thing. I'm looking at it from the SonyLand view point.

I hope that I AM "chicken little" and running around with my head cut off and crying the sky is falling.
However, take it from a 17 year veteran in Asia ... Prince had it right, he's gonna party like it's 1999!

So, maybe it would be best for D & Q decide one a plan B to safe guard opencart.

Or do you guys already have that planned?

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Post by Qphoria » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:44 pm

lol he's no stranger to HK.. hes moving "back" to HK i should say. He's already partied like it was a bangkok new year.. now he's just moving to enjoy life

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Post by SapporoGuy » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:22 pm

Cool! ;D

Reassured to here this.

Bangkok?!?
haha, Los Vegas is a pussy cat compared to that place ;)

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Post by i2Paq » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:47 pm

@Qphoria, are you also working on 1.5.0 or are you on a temporary sideline?

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Post by CUSTOM_UK » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:01 pm

OpenCart is an open source program, you have full access to the code and can modify it yourself to do all the things you want it to do. Folks have different levels of programming ability, some struggle to even make minor changes to the stylesheets, others are able to dig a litle bit deeper and some have enough programming ability to radically change the program themselves, but choose not to do so.

Its difficult for an open source solution to talk about 'competition' when the programs are generally free to use, but a lot of the other carts have operational flaws which is why lots of the folks on here moved across from different cart solutions. I liked OpenCart as it had an integrated guest checkout, the one thing I didn't like was that in the core program folks have to fill all their details in JUST to see what the shipping charge is. For a site visitor that is a REALLY bad flaw and certainly leads to many lost sales.

Whilst some folks talk about a basic core program and buying all of these add ons to create a bigger and better program, what you can end up with is a program that costs MORE than some commercial solutions, but WITHOUT all of the comprehensive documentation and dedicated support network. If a developer of an add on decides not to support later versions, the shop owner can find themselves well and truly stuffed. It would be difficult to move the product forward on that concept.

The original idea was to have a more comprehensive core program, rather than being dependant on add on modules that may not be compatible with later versions. Whatever direction OpenCart decides to take in the future is up to the development team, but it just seems you are all over the place as regards product development at the moment. If some of the elements are too complex, or you don't have enough development hours, get a couple more people on the team to help out with specific modules, but at the moment all this chopping, changing and indecision is destroying the whole integrity of the program.

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Post by SapporoGuy » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:48 pm

Hey Custom_UK

I've only been aince November so could you go into more detail about this?
The original idea was to have a more comprehensive core program, rather than being dependant on add on modules that may not be compatible with later versions.
Also, who you are addressing your post to: D&Q or somebody above?

@ total cost of ownership
ahhh, that is the rub about opensource.

@ remaining comments
Pretty much in agreement.

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Post by xds » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:06 pm

Shipping estimator:
This has been discussed a lot and I think it is a great feature to have but seriously people chill the hell out with the feature demands. This isn't going to be the last release of the cart, but it very well may end up never being released if all you people keep demanding more features to be added before 1.5 is released...

Thanks for 1.5!


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Post by CUSTOM_UK » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:27 pm

The developers of OpenCart were the ones saying the new version would have this feature and that feature built in and they were delaying release of 1.5 to allow these to be incorporated. You only have to read back through some of the forum postings to see those statements. It now appears that these WON'T be incorporated and with some of them they may never be incorporated at all now. Quite what the purpose is of 1.5 now apart from even MORE lack of compatability with previous templates is totally beyond me. :o

I have made the decision just to vacate OpenCart in its entirety now as I believe it has seriously lost its direction. It's a real shame has it had some great potential, but I'm not going to risk my online ventures by investing in software that seems to change its mind at every turn, as that's no way at all to run a project.

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Post by Qphoria » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:57 pm

i2Paq wrote:@Qphoria, are you also working on 1.5.0 or are you on a temporary sideline?
I have some pieces to do, but require the main chunk to be ready as those changes precede my changes
As you may have heard we just flipped back the layout system to the current one again so things are still volatile.

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Post by i2Paq » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:54 pm

Qphoria wrote:
i2Paq wrote:@Qphoria, are you also working on 1.5.0 or are you on a temporary sideline?
I have some pieces to do, but require the main chunk to be ready as those changes precede my changes
As you may have heard we just flipped back the layout system to the current one again so things are still volatile.
OK, I see.

So once 1.5.0 Alpha is out you step in to check and fix issue we come up with?

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Post by Xsecrets » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:24 pm

CUSTOM_UK wrote:The developers of OpenCart were the ones saying the new version would have this feature and that feature built in and they were delaying release of 1.5 to allow these to be incorporated. You only have to read back through some of the forum postings to see those statements. It now appears that these WON'T be incorporated and with some of them they may never be incorporated at all now.
I guess you've never worked with open source before, or really any pre production level software before. This is a common occurrence in all development. And it just so happens that pretty much the only two things that are not getting included are the two you have a big problem with. Even at that I still haven't seen anyone say that the shipping estimator will not get built in. I know Daniel was pretty high on that, so that leaves us with one payment module that is not getting built in which already has free versions available for download.

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Post by Qphoria » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:12 pm

Developers can also be overzealous.. we get in the zone... we get on a hot streak and start brainstorming all these great ideas and we make an outburst of excitement. Then we either lose momentum and try to trim the fat, or we find after working on something or hearing about something that it would make more sense to do it differently.

Google Checkout is a HUGE project and we are lucky that JNeuhoff has made the effort to create as well as maintain the integration. As long as we as a community keep him happy and pad his beer fund now and then, he will hopefully stick around to continue its support.

Support for the existing "core" payment mods is scant as it is... Many were made quickly to make a good impression of the cart having so many modules, but that leaves those modules as liabilities to be fixed by core developers which delays development of other pieces drastically. And since payment modules are only used by a handful of people, it could be time spent just helping 10% of users with the gateway problems while the other 90% of people who use the working gateways are getting nothing useful from it. So we'd rather spend core development time improving the actual cart for the majority, and leave the extension system to the community wherever we can.

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Post by Daniel » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:46 pm

CUSTOM_UK wrote: Its difficult for an open source solution to talk about 'competition' when the programs are generally free to use, but a lot of the other carts have operational flaws which is why lots of the folks on here moved across from different cart solutions. I liked OpenCart as it had an integrated guest checkout, the one thing I didn't like was that in the core program folks have to fill all their details in JUST to see what the shipping charge is. For a site visitor that is a REALLY bad flaw and certainly leads to many lost sales.

I disagreee completly. I don't think you lose a sinlge sale from not knowing the shipping price until you create an account. one page checkout systems have been known to lose sales if thats what your getting at.

Also what is your solution to calculate shipping before a customer enters any information.

it seems a bit redundent to enter your postcode or country and zone for shipping on the cart page then enter it again for registering.

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Post by Qphoria » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:25 am

I think it is a popular thing in USA because we can simply enter a zip code and get the rates.
It gets more complex internationally because you need Country, Region, and postcode... and in some cases where there is no postcode you need city.

But I think it can be done better to be a part of the process.
http://www.shop4tech.com has done this nicely as part of the checkout process.

Add an item to your cart and you get this on the "cart" page:
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Your zipcode gets carried over if you checkout by credit card so you only need to enter it once. We'd likely need to add country and zone along with postcode for full int'l support, but should be configurable to only show zipcode if you are only shipping in the USA.

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