Page 4 of 5

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:49 pm
by ekerazha
opencartisalright wrote: but a small to medium sized business running a web store, are they really gonna have a lot of write intensive activity? Would these sites benefit from having a faster write but a slower read?
Likely, the speed difference would be negligible in both cases. But they would benefit of the improved reliability offered by InnoDB.

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:58 pm
by opencartisalright
ekerazha wrote:Likely, the speed difference would be negligible in both cases.
When dealing with people and their short term patience, every millisecond counts. As I mentioned already I tried both InnoDB and MyISAM, and I could tell there was a page loading speed difference.

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:27 pm
by ekerazha
opencartisalright wrote: When dealing with people and their short term patience, every millisecond counts.
This is the reason why you should use InnoDB, if you have db inconsistencies and for example you lose orders, they won't be very patient... 2 milliseconds don't make any difference... a lost order (or similar) makes a huge difference.

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:33 pm
by opencartisalright
ekerazha wrote:
opencartisalright wrote: When dealing with people and their short term patience, every millisecond counts.
This is the reason why you should use InnoDB, if you have db inconsistencies and for example you lose orders, they won't be very patient... 2 milliseconds don't make any difference... a lost order (or similar) makes a huge difference.
I've never lost an order using MyISAM (knock on wood), but I have noticed the page loading speed was a lot slower than 2 milliseconds when using InnoDB. More like whole seconds.

If the page loads too slow and my customer doesn't even stick around, what's the point in having InnoDB?

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:42 pm
by ekerazha
opencartisalright wrote: I've never lost an order using MyISAM (knock on wood), but I have noticed the page loading speed was a lot slower than 2 milliseconds when using InnoDB. More like whole seconds.
That's the same thing that say people who never make backups... until something goes wrong.
If they are "whole seconds" then it's not InnoDB, it's your wrong subjective impression.

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:49 pm
by opencartisalright
ekerazha wrote:That's the same thing that say people who never make backups... until something goes wrong.
If they are "whole seconds" then it's not InnoDB, it's your wrong subjective impression.
Perception is something that's different from person to person. You might think the slower page speed isn't all that slow, but that's your perception. For other's they could view it quite differently.

Regardless of how you feel, it doesn't really matter when dealing with customers, whatever they perceive is as good as true.

Again, I've never had any data loss using MyISAM. Maybe when I'm the size of amazon or ebay and my database is dealing with heavy write I'll change my mind and go with InnoDB, but until then I don't really see how it would benefit small to medium sized web store owners whose web stores are not write intensive.

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:58 pm
by ekerazha
opencartisalright wrote:
ekerazha wrote:That's the same thing that say people who never make backups... until something goes wrong.
If they are "whole seconds" then it's not InnoDB, it's your wrong subjective impression.
Perception is something that's different from person to person. You might think the slower page speed isn't all that slow, but that's your perception. For other's they could view it quite differently.

Regardless of how you feel, it doesn't really matter when dealing with customers, whatever they perceive is as good as true.

Again, I've never had any data loss using MyISAM. Maybe when I'm the size of amazon or ebay and my database is dealing with heavy write I'll change my mind and go with InnoDB, but until then I don't really see how it would benefit small to medium sized web store owners whose web stores are not write intensive.
I'm sure that most people (probably everybody) can't notice a difference of 2 milliseconds. But if you really care about 2 milliseconds, then optimize your HTML code, optimize you CSS code, optimize your JavaScript code, optimize your images, optimize your server... never sacrifice reliability.

"I never made backups and I've never lost data". Nothing goes wrong until something goes wrong.

However, feel free to have an unsafe store, I'm not here to convince you : )

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:11 pm
by opencartisalright
ekerazha wrote:I'm sure that most people (probably everybody) can't notice a difference of 2 milliseconds. But if you really care about 2 milliseconds, then optimize your HTML code, optimize you CSS code, optimize your JavaScript code, optimize your images, optimize your server... never sacrifice reliability.
And to the regular old small to medium size business owner, they have no idea how to do all those things you mention, nor do they have the money to throw at someone who does. Again, companies like ebay and amazon have the resources to optimize their sites, and they also have a greater need for InnoDB because their sites are more write intensive. Small to medium sized web store owners however would benefit more from better performance.
ekerazha wrote:"I never made backups and I never lost data". Nothing goes wrong until something goes wrong.
You're putting words into my mouth. I never said I didn't make backups.
ekerazha wrote:However, feel free to have an unsafe store, I'm not here to convince you : )
Well now you're just being dramatic. Having InnoDB doesn't make a store any more safe than having MyISAM. According to you it just makes it more "reliable", but that really just depends on how write intensive your store is.

Did you create InnoDB or something? Cuz the way you're promoting it you'd think you were the creator of it. And if you really need it so bad then why are you here? You can use Magento and Prestashop since they offer it. Have fun with those bloated unintuitive pieces of crap though.

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:34 pm
by ekerazha
opencartisalright wrote: And to the regular old small to medium size business owner, they have no idea how to do all those things you mention, nor do they have the money to throw at someone who does. Again, companies like ebay and amazon have the resources to optimize their sites, and they also have a greater need for InnoDB because their sites are more write intensive. Small to medium sized web store owners however would benefit more from better performance.
This is why it should be done by default.
You are painting that regular old small to medium size business owner as an ignorant, so probably he couldn't even install a cart or upload it to the server. Moreover, the regular old small to medium size business owner doesn't care at all about 2 milliseconds.
opencartisalright wrote:
ekerazha wrote:"I never made backups and I never lost data". Nothing goes wrong until something goes wrong.
You're putting words into my mouth. I never said I didn't make backups.
I've never said that. I drew a parallel with another "nothing goes wrong until something goes wrong" case.
opencartisalright wrote: Well now you're just being dramatic. Having InnoDB doesn't make a store any less safe than having MyISAM. According to you it just makes it more "reliable", but that really just depends on how write intensive your store is.

Did you create InnoDB or something? Cuz the way you're promoting it you'd think you were the creator of it. And if you really need it so bad then why are you here? You can use Magento and Prestashop since they offer it. Have fun with those bloated unintuitive pieces of crap though.
MyISAM is less safe than InnoDB by design and MyISAM doesn't support transactions. You could also use PostgreSQL if you want, but for a MySQL based script is simpler to add InnoDB support than PostgreSQL support.

I'm just sorry because I think that OpenCart is overall nice but it doesn't offer a good reliability, so I proposed to add InnoDB and transactions support. However I'm not here to bother anyone, so I'll keep using Magento until there's a trustworthy alternative.

P.S.
The new theme of the last OpenCart versions is very inspired by the bloated unintuitive Magento ;)

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:24 am
by opencartisalright
ekerazha wrote:This is why it should be done by default. You are painting that regular old small to medium size business owner as an ignorant, so probably he couldn't even install a cart or upload it to the server. Moreover, the regular old small to medium size business owner doesn't care at all about 2 milliseconds.
Again, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm not implying small to medium sized entrepreneurs are ignorant, but I would say that most of them are not web developers or IT professionals, nor should they be. As a small to medium sized business owner my focus should be on marketing my business and making sales, not IT and web development. I could have a site that is HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and server optimized using InnoDB but that doesn't guarantee people are going to know about my site and visit it.

Secondly, let's get this 2 millisecond thing out of the way. I was just using that number figuratively. I'm really not certain how much of a performance hit it would be using InnoDB vs. MyISAM in db reads, all i'm saying is that my perception from my own tests was that InnoDB was slower, and as a customer my perception is the only thing that matters, not facts.
ekerazha wrote:MyISAM is less safe than InnoDB by design and MyISAM doesn't support transactions.
When you say safe, do you mean security wise or just reliability wise?
ekerazha wrote:P.S.
The new theme of the last OpenCart versions is very inspired by the bloated unintuitive Magento ;)
Thank god it was only the theme and not the architecture behind it...

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:59 am
by ekerazha
opencartisalright wrote: Again, you're putting words in my mouth. I'm not implying small to medium sized entrepreneurs are ignorant, but I would say that most of them are not web developers or IT professionals, nor should they be. As a small to medium sized business owner my focus should be on marketing my business and making sales, not IT and web development. I could have a site that is HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and server optimized using InnoDB but that doesn't guarantee people are going to know about my site and visit it.
With "ignorant" I mean that they ignore how to do such things. Apply this to my previous answer.
opencartisalright wrote: Secondly, let's get this 2 millisecond thing out of the way. I was just using that number figuratively. I'm really not certain how much of a performance hit it would be using InnoDB vs. MyISAM in db reads, all i'm saying is that my perception from my own tests was that InnoDB was slower, and as a customer my perception is the only thing that matters, not facts.
I think that most people don't have your wrong perception. You could have the perception that a white page is faster than a black page or that an elephant is smaller than a mosquito, but that's just your very personal problem. Moreover, some milliseconds would be an insignificant edge if you don't have reliability.
opencartisalright wrote: When you say safe, do you mean security wise or just reliability wise?
Reliability
opencartisalright wrote: Thank god it was only the theme and not the architecture behind it...
The problem with Magento is that it is huge and heavy (no, it's not because of InnoDB ;) ), this is why I'd prefer OpenCart if it was more reliable.

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:15 am
by Xsecrets
ekerazha have you ever actually lost any data because of myism? I've been doing ecommerce stores based on oscommerce and it's derivatives all of which use myism and opencart for over 7 years now and I've worked with several hundred stores and store owners and never once seen any data loss/corruption that would have been prevented by innodb. Just wondering if you are the worst king of bad luck or what.

At any rate the question has been answered there are no current plans to add innodb or any other sort of transaction support on the roadmap, so if you absolutely have to have it then you need to look elsewhere.

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:34 am
by ekerazha
Xsecrets wrote:ekerazha have you ever actually lost any data because of myism? I've been doing ecommerce stores based on oscommerce and it's derivatives all of which use myism and opencart for over 7 years now and I've worked with several hundred stores and store owners and never once seen any data loss/corruption that would have been prevented by innodb. Just wondering if you are the worst king of bad luck or what.
As I've already said, there's people who never make backups and - atm- never lost data. But it can happen... this is why people make backups. Maybe you never had issues with MyISAM, but issues can happen... and this is why atomicity, transactions etc. exist. You should prevent problems, when they happen it's too late.
At any rate the question has been answered there are no current plans to add innodb or any other sort of transaction support on the roadmap, so if you absolutely have to have it then you need to look elsewhere.
This is what I'm already doing (I'm using Magento), actually I'm just replying to some nonsense. Obviously, I'm not imposing anything.

P.S.
About MyISAM vs InnoDB performances http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/200 ... ks-part-1/ ;D

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:30 am
by opencartisalright
ekerazha wrote:With "ignorant" I mean that they ignore how to do such things. Apply this to my previous answer.
That's not really how it was implied.

"so probably he couldn't even install a cart or upload it to the server."

To me you make it sound more like ignorant/stupid, not ignorant/ignore.
ekerazha wrote:I think that most people don't have your wrong perception. You could have the perception that a white page is faster than a black page or that an elephant is smaller than a mosquito, but that's just your very personal problem. Moreover, some milliseconds would be an insignificant edge if you don't have reliability.
LOL, my wrong perception...I love how you phrased that. Good luck running a business with that mentality.

Bottom line is I could have the perception that the sky was pink and the earth was flat. Whether or not it's wrong, inaccurate, absurd, it still doesn't matter, because i'm the customer and whatever I believe will determine whether I stick around on your website and order from it. So if I perceive it to load slow, then I'm gonna click on to the next website.
ekerazha wrote:Reliability
Then use the word reliable, not safe. Using the word safe makes it seem like using InnoDB has some greater security advantage over MyISAM.
ekerazha wrote:The problem with Magento is that it is huge and heavy (no, it's not because of InnoDB ;) ), this is why I'd prefer OpenCart if it was more reliable.
Well, you still have PrestaShop. Why don't you just use it? They offer InnoDB if this is a sticking issue for you.
ekerazha wrote:actually I'm just replying to some nonsense.
Funny, I thought the same thing.

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:34 am
by Xsecrets
ekerazha wrote: As I've already said, there's people who never make backups and - atm- never lost data. But it can happen... this is why people make backups. Maybe you never had issues with MyISAM, but issues can happen... and this is why atomicity, transactions etc. exist. You should prevent problems, when they happen it's too late.
well you are right to some extent, but the statement is a bit dramatic as if you don't make backups you could loose all your data, and if you use myisam instead of innodb you could possibly loose part of one transaction in the case of a severe hardware failure. I would think the hardware failure is going to cost you much more time correcting than the one partial transaction.

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:25 pm
by ekerazha
opencartisalright wrote: That's not really how it was implied.

"so probably he couldn't even install a cart or upload it to the server."

To me you make it sound more like ignorant/stupid, not ignorant/ignore.
Actually it's ignorant/ignore where "ignore" is "don't have knowledge about it". English is not my native language, maybe in English or in your first language it has different acceptions.
opencartisalright wrote: LOL, my wrong perception...I love how you phrased that. Good luck running a business with that mentality.

Bottom line is I could have the perception that the sky was pink and the earth was flat. Whether or not it's wrong, inaccurate, absurd, it still doesn't matter, because i'm the customer and whatever I believe will determine whether I stick around on your website and order from it. So if I perceive it to load slow, then I'm gonna click on to the next website.
Bottom line is... I care about everybody except you.
Statistically, there are more people who think that an elephant is bigger than a mosquito. My stores will lose you instead of most of the people... I'll live with this.
opencartisalright wrote: Then use the word reliable, not safe. Using the word safe makes it seem like using InnoDB has some greater security advantage over MyISAM.
"Safe" is commonly used with the acception of "realiable". Just think at the "safely remove hardware" feature on Windows etc..
opencartisalright wrote: Well, you still have PrestaShop. Why don't you just use it? They offer InnoDB if this is a sticking issue for you.
I didn't check very deeply, but while PrestaShop supports InnoDB, it seems like it doesn't take advantage of transactions. Also, the PrestaShop admin theme is awful (the Magento/OpenCart theme is much better).
opencartisalright wrote: Funny, I thought the same thing.
You thought wrong and the facts demonstrate it. But you said things like "my perception is the only thing that matters, not facts" so I think that it's normal ;D

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:32 pm
by ekerazha
Xsecrets wrote:
ekerazha wrote: As I've already said, there's people who never make backups and - atm- never lost data. But it can happen... this is why people make backups. Maybe you never had issues with MyISAM, but issues can happen... and this is why atomicity, transactions etc. exist. You should prevent problems, when they happen it's too late.
well you are right to some extent, but the statement is a bit dramatic as if you don't make backups you could loose all your data, and if you use myisam instead of innodb you could possibly loose part of one transaction in the case of a severe hardware failure. I would think the hardware failure is going to cost you much more time correcting than the one partial transaction.
If my server is "managed", it doesn't cost me anything. If it is my own server, it's good that I don't also have a db with inconsistencies. If it is part of 1 transaction (i.e. payment not recorded or similar) it's a problem, if it is part of 10 or 100 transactions, then it's a big problem.

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:30 pm
by Xsecrets
ekerazha wrote:
Xsecrets wrote:
ekerazha wrote: As I've already said, there's people who never make backups and - atm- never lost data. But it can happen... this is why people make backups. Maybe you never had issues with MyISAM, but issues can happen... and this is why atomicity, transactions etc. exist. You should prevent problems, when they happen it's too late.
well you are right to some extent, but the statement is a bit dramatic as if you don't make backups you could loose all your data, and if you use myisam instead of innodb you could possibly loose part of one transaction in the case of a severe hardware failure. I would think the hardware failure is going to cost you much more time correcting than the one partial transaction.
If my server is "managed", it doesn't cost me anything. If it is my own server, it's good that I don't also have a db with inconsistencies. If it is part of 1 transaction (i.e. payment not recorded or similar) it's a problem, if it is part of 10 or 100 transactions, then it's a big problem.
Well I love opencart, but if you are doing 10 or 100 transactions at precisely the same second then you are not going to be using opencart. Maybe magento, but not likely if you are that big then you most likely have a system that was developed in house by your team of developers to be highly scalable across your multitude of datacenters. And regardless of managed or not the cost I was referring to was time. It's going to take your datacenter time to fix the hardware and it will be more time than it takes you to clean up one transaction. I'm not saying that transactions may not be the best way to go, but it's a hell of a lot of work to implement for a very small gain. It's like armor plating your car because you might get hit by a stray bullet when you live in the suburbs why go to so much effort for an event that is extremely unlikely.

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:31 pm
by ekerazha
Xsecrets wrote: Well I love opencart, but if you are doing 10 or 100 transactions at precisely the same second then you are not going to be using opencart. Maybe magento, but not likely if you are that big then you most likely have a system that was developed in house by your team of developers to be highly scalable across your multitude of datacenters.
I think that 10 writing operations can be common for a small business. It's not 10,000.
And regardless of managed or not the cost I was referring to was time. It's going to take your datacenter time to fix the hardware and it will be more time than it takes you to clean up one transaction.
They can just move you to a working server. But also if it takes some time, it's better that I don't add more time (many time) fixing database inconsistencies. Moreover, maybe it's not something that you can "fix" (also if it's just 1 "transaction"), maybe you have an order but you don't have the shipping address and/or the e-mail address. Those are lost customers and they are lost customers who will talk bad about your store, so you'll lose other potential customers.
I'm not saying that transactions may not be the best way to go, but it's a hell of a lot of work to implement for a very small gain. It's like armor plating your car because you might get hit by a stray bullet when you live in the suburbs why go to so much effort for an event that is extremely unlikely.
Well... I think that it's a medium amount of work for a huge gain. When you are taling about business and money, reliability is critical. You could start converting the db structure to InnoDB and wrap critical queries using START_TRANSACTION etc.
Obviously these are just suggestions, you can keep not using InnoDB and transactions and I can keep using Magento... no problems. I'm just sorry because I'd like to use OpenCart if it was more reliable.

Re: InnoDB vs MyISAM Discussion

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:51 pm
by Xsecrets
ekerazha wrote:
Xsecrets wrote: Well I love opencart, but if you are doing 10 or 100 transactions at precisely the same second then you are not going to be using opencart. Maybe magento, but not likely if you are that big then you most likely have a system that was developed in house by your team of developers to be highly scalable across your multitude of datacenters.
I think that 10 writing operations can be common for a small business. It's not 10,000.
well right there is where you're blowing it all out of proportion. Lets just say for grins you have a very slow server and a db transaction takes 6 seconds. We both know it should really be under 500 milliseconds, but we'll make the numbers easy. If you are doing 10 orders in 6 seconds then you are doing 100 orders every minute that's 144,000 orders a day if it's linear of course it won't be, but even so given that a db transaction is actually generally less than half a second the linear number is well into the millions. I don't really think anyone would classify that as a small business.