Post by SebastianJu » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:49 am

Hello,

out of curiosity i wanted to see how opencart is working without javascript. So i disabled javascript and... half of opencart isnt useable anymore... o.O Whats that? I never thought that there isnt a fallback coded for such case. I thought thats kind of good coding behaviour.

For example the language or currencybuttons dont work anymore. Its not a problem to setup normal links together with javascript functions so that the shop would be borderless isnt it?

So why is that? Im a bit disappointed now.

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Post by cronowebmaster » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:14 pm

I agree that OC is using to much javascript, especially in cart. But there is no reason not to use it at all or having to write code to work with/without javascript. Those users that are not having javascript activated are just a few. And these days even search engines can parse javascript. I saw a few weeks ago at google.


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Post by SebastianJu » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:27 pm

Im not complaining about the 2% or how much it is actually that dont have javascript activated. Im speaking about borderless design. There are enough users that wouldnt be able to use such shop only because they are disabled and their browser cant make use of javascript. I normally always build websites the way that they are useable without javascript and then add javascript functions to make someting nicer. Its not a problem to create a normal link that would work as a normal link without javascript and has a javascript-function included that would use this function when javascript is enabled. So i dont understand this.

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Post by Xsecrets » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:21 pm

so you are not worried about the 2% (not sure where you get your numbers I would say more like 0.002%) that don't have javascript enabled, but you are worried about the blind guy whos friend played a joke on him and turned off his javascript? How many of them do you think there are? As far as I know even browsers for disabled people support javascript.

Having said that yes javascript is used in many places in opencart where it is not needed, however there are a few places in the checkout where it is needed, so a browser without javascript could not use the system to buy something anyway even if you did fix all the simple ones.

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Post by SebastianJu » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:46 pm

I have read stats of 2%-5% of users that dont have javascript enabled. Its hard to find new stats because often these statistics dont work without javascript. So it bites itself. :)

And of course that should matter. They are at least customers arent they? So when we speak about so simple things like links that dont work without javascript anymore i have to ask why these customers arent worth it?

And what do you speak about friends that disable javascript? What screenreader has javascript enabled?

I didnt go through a shopping process till now without javascript. So you tell me now no one can even order without javascript? ... I now checked it. You cant register, you cant add to basket. And i dont get why.

Now i checked the languagesupport because i plan to set it up in the next time and found that the chosen language doesnt appear in the url. Probably stored in sessioncookie or somewhere similar. But why? What should google store in its database? The english version of an url or another language version? Why?

Whatever. I was happy about opencart and how easy it seems to be but such basic problems... i dont know.

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Post by Xsecrets » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:53 am

SebastianJu wrote:I have read stats of 2%-5% of users that dont have javascript enabled. Its hard to find new stats because often these statistics dont work without javascript. So it bites itself. :)

And of course that should matter. They are at least customers arent they? So when we speak about so simple things like links that dont work without javascript anymore i have to ask why these customers arent worth it?

And what do you speak about friends that disable javascript? What screenreader has javascript enabled?
what screenreader doesn't? they all just read from an existing browser, and all browsers now have javascript.
I didnt go through a shopping process till now without javascript. So you tell me now no one can even order without javascript? ... I now checked it. You cant register, you cant add to basket. And i dont get why.
registering and adding to basket there is no reason why, but there are some legitimate reasons the checkout doesn't work without it.
Now i checked the languagesupport because i plan to set it up in the next time and found that the chosen language doesnt appear in the url. Probably stored in sessioncookie or somewhere similar. But why? What should google store in its database? The english version of an url or another language version? Why?
what difference does it make. The main way the language is set is by the browser language, so 90% of the time you will just get the correct language, or at least the language your browser is set to, which I can't really think why someone would set their browser to a language they don't know.
Whatever. I was happy about opencart and how easy it seems to be but such basic problems... i dont know.

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Post by SebastianJu » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:26 am

Ok, maybe youre right about the screenreaders. Seems like things changed there. I dont know how a opencart shop could be used in praxis with a screenreader.

What is the good reason that checkout cant or shouldnt work without javascript?

2 languages stored under the same url are anti-seo because what page of content should google store in its index? Maybe the us-version because the google bot came from a us-server? But then maybe this bot clicks the javascript switch for the language and sees that its another language now. Under the same url. What to store?
So at the end you would only have one language stored in google index. What version i dont know. Probably the mainlanguage. But then you wont be found properly for the other languages. You could offer the visitors the other languages but you wouldnt be found by this visitors in the search engines when they search in their language. Every url must be different when it should be found in search engines. If im wrong please give me an example where google stored the same url for different languages.

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Post by Qphoria » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:16 am

In this day and age it just isn't worth having a non-javascript fallback at the cost of design and beauty.

Without javascript:
- Buttons would either need to be image based or just gray buttons, and only with a form
- No ajax update which means full page reloads for simple zone/state update, costing much more bandwidth than a simple json string.
- No one page checkout alternatives
- No fancy banners, scrollers, tabs, etc
- No thickbox

I will agree that there is some overuse where simple <a href> links are needlessly replaced with <a onclick> links. But it's mostly harmless. The worst was on the product edit options page in 1.5.1.3 and that has been resolved in 1.5.2.

The checkout system in 1.5.x is neat, but I think at the cost of all the work it took to make it, It may have been better to use a simper method.

But for the main stuff, designer button links, popup overlays, scrollers, and an overall "Web 2.0" feel.. It is worth it not having to backwards code for the past.

HTML5 is heavily integrated with javascript so having a non-js site is more work than its worth and is a big step backwards.

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Post by SebastianJu » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:39 am

Hello,

i now spoke with a couple of persons and read a good chunk about the topic. It seems javascript is not that problematic for disabled people, for example blind people. They can handle it for the most part and i think opencart would work too.

Generally its not too good to make something only accessible with special techniques but java, flash and so on seems more problematic. I was told things like colorsettings, the use of correct html-tags and so on are more important. A set of tools maybe helpful for this i found here: http://translate.google.de/translate?sl ... ml&act=url

Then i have read different opinions about the effect on a shop. I have read a guy that claimed that he tested this topic and he had the opinion that the force of javascript has bad effects on the income. He announced some stats but i didnt found the actual stats then. Another user claimed that it is the other way around. That non-javascript-users doesnt have a impact. So it seems only guessing at the moment. Of course i spoke a good chunk of people too that claimed the always have javascript deactivated for security reasons. And thats a point thats of interest for me. My shop is of a kind of grey area a bit. Its legal but persons dont want to leave traces there. So im asking myself how many of them are using proxies or tor. When they would use them they most probably, without special software, would need to disable javascript. Otherwise javascript, flash and so on can be used to reveal the real ip. Thats a point where im asking myself if that would have an impact for my business. But to find this out i have to implement some tracking software first. But before i plan to update the shop to the newest version.

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Post by sb65 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:21 pm

In this day and age it just isn't worth having a non-javascript fallback at the cost of design and beauty.
I'm sorry, but I disagree with this. That's effectively saying you don't care if nobody can buy from your shop if it doesn't look nice.

It's straightforward to replace the onclick=location links with normal href attributes, as you point out. It's only marginally more messy to provide submit buttons that will work with all the forms. All the buttons are within forms anyway.

I've then hidden the buttons that use javascript with css, and on page load use two lines of jQuery to show the javascript buttons and hide the submit buttons. The form submit buttons can be styled to be virtually indistinguishable from the javascript buttons.

The vast vast majority of users will have js enabled, but it's easy enough to cater for the tiny minority that don't.

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Post by Xsecrets » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:04 pm

sb65 wrote: I've then hidden the buttons that use javascript with css, and on page load use two lines of jQuery to show the javascript buttons and hide the submit buttons. The form submit buttons can be styled to be virtually indistinguishable from the javascript buttons.
you do realize that jquery is javascript don't you. They look like javascript buttons because they are.
The vast vast majority of users will have js enabled, but it's easy enough to cater for the tiny minority that don't.
I think you just proved in your last statement that it's not.

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Post by JAY6390 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:52 pm

Without JS, this is going to be a massive mess to do. It's possible to code of course, but in this day and age, practically every browser has JS enabled, and those that don't aren't really likely to be buying products. JS is a necessity for any shopping cart IMHO

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Post by Qphoria » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:48 pm

Xsecrets wrote:
sb65 wrote: I've then hidden the buttons that use javascript with css, and on page load use two lines of jQuery to show the javascript buttons and hide the submit buttons. The form submit buttons can be styled to be virtually indistinguishable from the javascript buttons.
you do realize that jquery is javascript don't you.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

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Post by sb65 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:32 pm

you do realize that jquery is javascript don't you. They look like javascript buttons because they are.
Ha ha.

Actually, the buttons look like they do through the css, not js, but still.

You have not understood, I'm afraid. And, yes, I understand that the javascript buttons will not appear if there's no javascript enabled. That is the entire point of the exercise I described - buttons that require javascript are not displayed to the user if they have javascript disabled, instead buttons that work without javascript are displayed.

If you want to ridicule a solution to deliver a working shop to a user with javascript disabled, fine. Looks like there are a few around who might appreciate it, which is why I posted.

Just in case I haven't described it sufficiently, in the html I'm including two buttons - a standard form input/submit, and the Opencart "standard" link that requires javascript. The javascript button is hidden by css. So, if js is disabled, the form submit buttons are visible and usable. If js is enabled, I use it to hide the standard buttons and show the ones that need js. Why bother with the js button at all, then? Because it's far easier to style consistently cross-browser.

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