Post by gocreative » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:35 am

Purebeads wrote:Drop-down menus that drop down automatically when the cursor passes over them can be very frustrating. A page visitor should not have to worry about where he is moving his cursor. If you are going to keep the drop-down menus, then please make them activated by a click.
That's a very bad move. Users understand that website menus work by hovering, and that's what they should do. Not to mention, the top-level item should point to a landing page. This ensures that the top-level items can still function as an unordered list while also acting as a failsafe for users. The landing page can also help with SEO so it's good to have.

I personally don't have any issue with drop-downs (though they should be kept to one submenu level at most) and am not that concerned about the occasions where my cursor hovers over the wrong spot. The whole purpose of a website dictates that users MUST worry about where the cursor is, in order to navigate to the information they require.

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Post by Purebeads » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:07 am

gocreative wrote:I think there should be one large image to the left (as there is now), then a column of small thumbnails to the right of that. When hovering over a thumbnail, it immediately displays that image in the larger area. Clicking on any image should open something better than thickbox (e.g. a lightbox with an image gallery).

On the admin side, rather than choosing the 'main' image and then using the 'Image' tab to add others, I think all images should be added from the one tab ('Images') and then the user can simply nominate the order in which they are shown, with number '1' being the main image displayed on the front end.
I don't care for these ideas. As I said in my post, nothing should open (not a menu or an image) unless the customer clicks on it. You don't want the visitors to your site to be afraid to drag the mouse cursor across the screen for fear that something will open up unexpectedly.

As for the images, I very much like that I can designate the size of the thumbnail image and the size of the larger images. I want my images to be as clear as possible, so I size them to equal the size designated in OpenCart. Thus, my thumbnails are 180 x 180 (and that's the size I cut the images to), and my full-size images are 500 x 400 (and that's the size I cut the larger images to). I don't want all the images to be the same size.

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Post by Purebeads » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:17 am

gocreative wrote:That's a very bad move. Users understand that website menus work by hovering, and that's what they should do. Not to mention, the top-level item should point to a landing page. This ensures that the top-level items can still function as an unordered list while also acting as a failsafe for users. The landing page can also help with SEO so it's good to have.
No, not all web sites have hoverable menus. That's a fairly new invention. I've been on web sites where I kept having windows open that I didn't want to be opened -- it is EXTREMELY annoying. I don't want them on my site. If that's what Daniel settles on, then I'll be asking for code to change that. (Daniel, please don't give us automatic features that many people may find annoying.)

Here is the site of my main supplier: www.czechbeads.com. There are no automatic "hoverable" menus on that site, and that's just the way I want it.
gocreative wrote:I personally don't have any issue with drop-downs (though they should be kept to one submenu level at most) and am not that concerned about the occasions where my cursor hovers over the wrong spot. The whole purpose of a website dictates that users MUST worry about where the cursor is, in order to navigate to the information they require.
I absolutely disagree with that last sentence. When browsing the internet, the mouse cursor may fall in any random spot, and the page visitor should not have to worry about where it is until he is ready to click on a link.

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Post by Xsecrets » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:31 am

Purebeads wrote: As for the images, I very much like that I can designate the size of the thumbnail image and the size of the larger images. I want my images to be as clear as possible, so I size them to equal the size designated in OpenCart. Thus, my thumbnails are 180 x 180 (and that's the size I cut the images to), and my full-size images are 500 x 400 (and that's the size I cut the larger images to). I don't want all the images to be the same size.
how exactly do you cut all your images to be the correct size when opencart only accepts one size image and then generates all the other ones automatically?

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Post by atlee » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:39 am

The Alpha with the option to add a manual order is the best option yet, i'm waiting eagerly for the final version but at this stage i will just use the work around the longer way but OpenCart is definitely a good piece of shopping cart material, I would love to join the team and help out if i could in anyway.

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Post by gocreative » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:44 am

Purebeads wrote:As for the images, I very much like that I can designate the size of the thumbnail image and the size of the larger images. I want my images to be as clear as possible, so I size them to equal the size designated in OpenCart. Thus, my thumbnails are 180 x 180 (and that's the size I cut the images to), and my full-size images are 500 x 400 (and that's the size I cut the larger images to). I don't want all the images to be the same size.
Could you please point me to the part where I said that thumbnail sizes couldn't be designated? All I suggested was that, rather than having one large image that opens a lightbox and then a few smaller images underneath that open a lightbox, the thumbnails would have the added functionality of changing the main image when hovering. Clicking would still present the lightbox. This is pretty standard across all major shopping carts (commercial and otherwise).

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Post by Purebeads » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:51 am

Xsecrets wrote:
Purebeads wrote: As for the images, I very much like that I can designate the size of the thumbnail image and the size of the larger images. I want my images to be as clear as possible, so I size them to equal the size designated in OpenCart. Thus, my thumbnails are 180 x 180 (and that's the size I cut the images to), and my full-size images are 500 x 400 (and that's the size I cut the larger images to). I don't want all the images to be the same size.
how exactly do you cut all your images to be the correct size when opencart only accepts one size image and then generates all the other ones automatically?
I don't fully understand the question. In admin, I have designated the size of the thumbnail to be 180 x 180, and that's the size that I cut all my thumbnail images to. Thus, OpenCart neither enlarges nor shrinks the thumbnail images, which means that the thumbnail images are always shown in their native size.

Ditto with the large images. I have specified a size of 500 x 400 in admin, and that's the size that I cut all the larger images to. (Actually, I was cutting them to 400 x 400, but I changed that.)

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Post by gocreative » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:55 am

Purebeads wrote:No, not all web sites have hoverable menus. That's a fairly new invention.
Hoverable menus have been around for at least a decade. I would also hazard to guess that at least 95% of all websites with drop-down menus use the hover method, rather than click, to reveal the submenus.
Purebeads wrote:Here is the site of my main supplier: http://www.czechbeads.com. There are no automatic "hoverable" menus on that site, and that's just the way I want it.
What about the users? The navigation is absolutely HORRIBLE. Too much text, hard to find what you're looking for, and not even sorted or grouped. The least they could have done is made the list alphabetical. That site is the perfect example of poor design. If I was shopping for beads and had any other viable alternatives, I'd go elsewhere without going past the home page. I'm not sure I should take anything you say seriously after looking at that site if you genuinely think that's a good model.
Purebeads wrote:When browsing the internet, the mouse cursor may fall in any random spot, and the page visitor should not have to worry about where it is until he is ready to click on a link.
It's as simple as moving the cursor off the menu. With a click-to-reveal menu, most users wouldn't even know that they had to click. As I said, most websites with submenus work by hovering and that's what most users expect to happen. Besides, a website can't help what a user is doing upon visiting the site. The user must move the cursor where they want in order to find what they're looking for. That's a fact of life.

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Post by gocreative » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:59 am

Purebeads wrote:I don't fully understand the question. In admin, I have designated the size of the thumbnail to be 180 x 180, and that's the size that I cut all my thumbnail images to. Thus, OpenCart neither enlarges nor shrinks the thumbnail images, which means that the thumbnail images are always shown in their native size.

Ditto with the large images. I have specified a size of 500 x 400 in admin, and that's the size that I cut all the larger images to. (Actually, I was cutting them to 400 x 400, but I changed that.)
I have no idea what you're on about. OpenCart automatically resizes thumbnails based on your preferences in the admin panel. Unless you change the settings there, your images will be resized anyway.

What I was suggesting is that, on the front end, one large image is shown (just as it is now). A few thumbnails (other images) are shown (just as they are now). Currently clicking on any image opens a lightbox. I don't want to change that. All I want is that, in addition to the existing functionaliy, hovering over the thumbnails displays them in place of the original image. The sizing of all images could still be done through the admin panel and customising the template if required.

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Post by Qphoria » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:02 pm

gocreative wrote:
Purebeads wrote:No, not all web sites have hoverable menus. That's a fairly new invention.
Hoverable menus have been around for at least a decade. I would also hazard to guess that at least 95% of all websites with drop-down menus use the hover method, rather than click, to reveal the submenus.
Purebeads wrote:Here is the site of my main supplier: http://www.czechbeads.com. There are no automatic "hoverable" menus on that site, and that's just the way I want it.
What about the users? The navigation is absolutely HORRIBLE. Too much text, hard to find what you're looking for, and not even sorted or grouped. The least they could have done is made the list alphabetical. That site is the perfect example of poor design. If I was shopping for beads and had any other viable alternatives, I'd go elsewhere without going past the home page. I'm not sure I should take anything you say seriously after looking at that site if you genuinely think that's a good model.
Purebeads wrote:When browsing the internet, the mouse cursor may fall in any random spot, and the page visitor should not have to worry about where it is until he is ready to click on a link.
It's as simple as moving the cursor off the menu. With a click-to-reveal menu, most users wouldn't even know that they had to click. As I said, most websites with submenus work by hovering and that's what most users expect to happen. Besides, a website can't help what a user is doing upon visiting the site. The user must move the cursor where they want in order to find what they're looking for. That's a fact of life.
I have to say "click" menus are completely unintuitive for a webpage IMO... everything is hover for as long as I've known it.. that czech beads site looks like one of the best sites ever made... in 1997. Regardless, to hover or click is an easy change in the javascript, but hover will always be default. There are javascripts in place to delay the hover effect.. just like the opencart admin has. I actually find that annoying when I'm in a rush.

I like this menu:
http://www.payfast.co.za
its a bit too fast for most.. but as fast as it shows up, it disappears
It also fails gracefully when you disable javascript.. it uses CSS for the actual hover functionality and javascript only for animation.. You can also add delays at the point as well.... which is the way a menu should work... IMO
That appears to be a suckerfish/superfish menu...
http://users.tpg.com.au/j_birch/plugins ... /#examples which work fine with javascript disabled but have a nice delay when it is enabled

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Post by Xsecrets » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:07 pm

Purebeads wrote:
Xsecrets wrote:
Purebeads wrote: As for the images, I very much like that I can designate the size of the thumbnail image and the size of the larger images. I want my images to be as clear as possible, so I size them to equal the size designated in OpenCart. Thus, my thumbnails are 180 x 180 (and that's the size I cut the images to), and my full-size images are 500 x 400 (and that's the size I cut the larger images to). I don't want all the images to be the same size.
how exactly do you cut all your images to be the correct size when opencart only accepts one size image and then generates all the other ones automatically?
I don't fully understand the question. In admin, I have designated the size of the thumbnail to be 180 x 180, and that's the size that I cut all my thumbnail images to. Thus, OpenCart neither enlarges nor shrinks the thumbnail images, which means that the thumbnail images are always shown in their native size.

Ditto with the large images. I have specified a size of 500 x 400 in admin, and that's the size that I cut all the larger images to. (Actually, I was cutting them to 400 x 400, but I changed that.)
ok I understand that you enter the sizes in the settings. Now tell me where exactly in the admin you enter your thumbnail images? There is no spot to enter a thumbnail image in open cart you only ever enter one image the cart automatically resizes the image to fit the sizes you set in the settings. As a matter of fact even if you crop your image to the exact dimensions it still gets resized back to the same size.

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Post by Qphoria » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:08 pm

I like this theme:
http://www.tradetang.com/

would be a good base and has another cool hover menu with separation by subcat

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Post by Xsecrets » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:08 pm

so Q when are you going to post the code so we can get our hands on it?
You need to get it up before Daniel gets back online and decides he doesn't want our hands on it. ;D

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Post by Qphoria » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:09 pm

lol ya.. i forgot.. I'll get it up first thing tomorrow.. I wanted to run through the installer once to be sure it works and get a clean sql dump

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Post by Purebeads » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:17 pm

gocreative wrote:
Purebeads wrote:Here is the site of my main supplier: http://www.czechbeads.com. There are no automatic "hoverable" menus on that site, and that's just the way I want it.
What about the users? The navigation is absolutely HORRIBLE. Too much text, hard to find what you're looking for, and not even sorted or grouped. The least they could have done is made the list alphabetical. That site is the perfect example of poor design. If I was shopping for beads and had any other viable alternatives, I'd go elsewhere without going past the home page. I'm not sure I should take anything you say seriously after looking at that site if you genuinely think that's a good model.
That supplier's site is the best-designed site that I make purchases from. I love that site. It is simple, and it is perfect for my industry. The beads are not ordered alphabetically on purpose -- they are ordered from the most common shapes to the least common shapes (just as I do on my site). And I love the fact that nothing pops up unexpectedly when I'm navigating it.

I am on the internet for 2-3 hours a day, and I can tell you that a majority of sites do not have hover menus. Click menus still rule. However, if what Qphoria says is true -- that it is an easy change in the code -- then I won't argue against them any more.

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Post by gocreative » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:26 pm

Qphoria wrote:I like this theme:
http://www.tradetang.com/

would be a good base and has another cool hover menu with separation by subcat
Agreed - the design is a good starting point, and the menu in particular is pretty cool.

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Post by gocreative » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:37 pm

Purebeads wrote:That supplier's site is the best-designed site that I make purchases from. I love that site. It is simple, and it is perfect for my industry. The beads are not ordered alphabetically on purpose -- they are ordered from the most common shapes to the least common shapes (just as I do on my site). And I love the fact that nothing pops up unexpectedly when I'm navigating it.
Well if that's truly the case then a) your suppliers need to fire their developers/designers b) bead purchasers are descended directly from modern apes.
Purebeads wrote:I am on the internet for 2-3 hours a day, and I can tell you that a majority of sites do not have hover menus. Click menus still rule.
Completely wrong. Obviously we can both scour the internet for sites with hover menus and click menus, but I can categorically guarantee that you are wrong. I'm a web designer and spend up to 15 hours per day working online, often more. I do this seven days per week and have been for over a decade. I can honestly say I have probably only ever come across maybe a couple of dozen click-based menus, and not a single one was a positive experience.

BTW, I'm not denying that click-based menus are intuitive in general. Of course, in general computing use that's the way then function. But that's not how most websites work. Ideally, all menus (websites and otherwise) would be click-based but for now designers need to ensure that websites function as expected for as many users as possible.
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Post by Purebeads » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:38 pm

Qphoria wrote:I like this theme:
http://www.tradetang.com/

would be a good base and has another cool hover menu with separation by subcat
To me, that site is much too fancy. Home pages that are more-and-more cluttered is the current trend; but as a consumer, I find them confusing and daunting. As for the hover menus, these seem to work well, but I find them too complex. They simply require too much reading (although I guess if you have a lot of categories, that can't be avoided.)

One of the things that I hate about hover menus is that you often have to be very careful about how you move your mouse cursor to the sub-category. If your cursor accidentally strays off the menu, it disappears.

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Post by Purebeads » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:47 pm

gocreative wrote:
Purebeads wrote:That supplier's site is the best-designed site that I make purchases from. I love that site. It is simple, and it is perfect for my industry. The beads are not ordered alphabetically on purpose -- they are ordered from the most common shapes to the least common shapes (just as I do on my site). And I love the fact that nothing pops up unexpectedly when I'm navigating it.
Well if that's truly the case then a) your suppliers need to fire their developers/designers b) bead purchasers are descended directly from modern apes.
Purebeads wrote:I am on the internet for 2-3 hours a day, and I can tell you that a majority of sites do not have hover menus. Click menus still rule.
Completely wrong. Obviously we can both scour the internet for sites with hover menus and click menus, but I can categorically guarantee that you are wrong. I'm a web designer and spend up to 15 hours per day working online, often more. I do this seven days per week and have been for over a decade. I can honestly say I have probably only ever come across maybe a couple of dozen click-based menus, and not a single one was a positive experience.
Gocreative, you are getting a little disrespectful. We're simply going to have to agree to disagree. (We're all descended from apes, incidentally.)

Whether or not hover menus are the norm or the exception, all I can say is that I encounter them on a minority of sites that I visit. I'm including non-commercial sites in my estimate. Go to the NY Times site and you won't find hover menus, or on most of the other news sites. Hover menus cannot be found on any of my suppliers' sites. There is absolutely no doubt that I am not encountering them on a majority of the sites that I visit. Perhaps it is because you are a web developer that you think this relatively new feature is more common than it is. I found them annoying the first time I encountered them, and I still find them annoying. I don't need the site I'm visiting to make my clicks for me.
Last edited by Purebeads on Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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