Post by neufke » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:55 am

rph wrote:
villagedefrance wrote:OpenCart is an opensource community based project, but the dev team doesn't seem to be listening to what the community is saying and has been saying for months (if not years!). Very sad.
Not to pile on the hate train, but a major problem is that we aren't a community in the open source sense. We essentially have a person who makes the software and everyone else who uses it. The vision for that software is not communicated and feedback from the users is ignored. As a developer it's become almost impossible for me to justify investing more time in such a system.
The complete absence of any comments of 'the author' on itself says enough i think. I know i cant justify all hours spended to my client... i could have bought a Magento license, created the 6 shops and still have spent less money than i have now.

Best thing to do would be for any extension writer to completely abandon OC and just let it bleed to dead...

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Post by rph » Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:47 am

And now an undocumented backwards compatibility break for all language packs. Lovely.

https://github.com/opencart/opencart/issues/2866

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Post by pla1829 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:16 am

JNeuhoff wrote:About the upgrade from 2.0.1.1 to 2.0.2.0: Since the DB structure is still the same, the following approach should work:
  • Make a complete backup of the 2.0.1.1 database
  • Install OpenCart 2.0.2.0
  • Install all extensions you had on 2.0.1.1 to your 2.0.2.0
  • Restore the database from the 1st step to 2.0.2.0
Is there a way to upgrade by keeping the same database and store? In essence, keeping products, images, orders, customers, extensions, customizations, etc..

Even though I just read that the included "upgrade instructions" txt file is outdated, I made an attempt to upgrade from 2.0.1.1 to 2.0.2.0 using the upgrade txt file.

I created a changes-only patch (here is a zip http://www.filedropper.com/2011to2020changesonlypatch) and I uploaded this to the website.

I ran the upgrade, however, there was an internal 500 server error and the upgrade failed.

So.. is there a way to keep everything intact and just upgrade to fix bugs from the last version? What would be a detailed approach to upgrade from 2.0.1.1 to 2.0.2.0? Could I still use the changes-only patch??

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Post by OSWorX » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:18 pm

neufke wrote:so, what you are basically saying is that OC is a 1-person Opensource, community payed package??
Basically: yes.

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Post by pm-netti » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:02 pm

neufke wrote: There is not a problem with your script that i can point out without diving into the script. Overall i think the problem is that differences between clean install databases and updated databases are a gigantic problem... I found an sh*tload of differences in each and every update, compared with a fresh install... If you don't think that that is a problem, again, i rest my case...
Problems can be reduced to: Do not do a clean installation
This eg. wrong for right upgrade:

Wrong:
Do clean install
Change database tables from trade tables.
Change also setting table
Database to Upgarde in Migration & Upgrdade Tool.
Result: Many error messages.

Right:
Do backup (in phpmyadmin) in trade database.
Trade database (or database copy) to Upgarde in Migration & Upgrdade Tool.
Setting the table not be changed ever
Result: Success!

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Post by Axel Wers » Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:29 pm

pm-netti wrote: Right:
Do backup (in phpmyadmin) in trade database.
Trade database (or database copy) to Upgarde in Migration & Upgrdade Tool.
Setting the table not be changed ever
Result: Success!
Maybe we will use your services because it seems upgrade OC from 1.5.x to 2.x is much more difficult adventure than Tomb Raider. Lot of pitfalls, strange occurrences, and many a stupid surprises. I made lot of upgrades of IP.Board, phpBB, Wordpress but OpenCart is something... hard to tell what is it. It's good eshop free system but lack of support for upgrade is inadmissible

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Post by gilaraujo » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:00 pm

neufke wrote:
rph wrote:
villagedefrance wrote:OpenCart is an opensource community based project, but the dev team doesn't seem to be listening to what the community is saying and has been saying for months (if not years!). Very sad.
Not to pile on the hate train, but a major problem is that we aren't a community in the open source sense. We essentially have a person who makes the software and everyone else who uses it. The vision for that software is not communicated and feedback from the users is ignored. As a developer it's become almost impossible for me to justify investing more time in such a system.
The complete absence of any comments of 'the author' on itself says enough i think. I know i cant justify all hours spended to my client... i could have bought a Magento license, created the 6 shops and still have spent less money than i have now.

Best thing to do would be for any extension writer to completely abandon OC and just let it bleed to dead...
I am not a developer, and even all my coding language is very self taught and mostly trial and error. I am a end user, currently developing - or trying to - a front store for my father business.

I DO understand that is impossible to please everyone, and i do understand as per a developer that is - in theory - putting time into this for free, the threshold of patience might run LOW with all the moaning and moaning. However there's an attitude problem for sure when you try to report a bug and you are called - indirectly - a moron.

I tried to put some bug reports on github, and after 1 answer i understood is pointless.

On the other hand, specially for someone with my profile, magento doesn't seem to be the way to go. The learning curve is way too steep. At least thats what i found.

So where does this leave me? Compromise i guess, i got to learn to work around the "kingdom" attitude - the My way or the high way - and use the help of others that are willing to help you out putting things as you NEED them to be.

In the name of fairness though, even with all the struggle and hoop jumping - the point i have the store at the moment wouldn't be possible unless i used a base like opencart. I wouldn't ever be able to code it it myself nor would i pay 15000 USD - which was my lowest quote - to have a 3rd party do it.

Thank god for all of you that care enough to stick arround and answer ppl doubts and needs!

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Post by neufke » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:15 pm

Well, as a developer i wouldn't mind updating my own stores and write the learning curve down in a script. That way, everyone benefits, that is the basic thought of an open source community. And lets be honest, there is nothing wrong with someone earning good money from good work, is it in writing code for the project or as an extension developer.

The problem comes when the main developer writes code that can best be described as level 11-year old, waits for others to clean up the shit and then creates a new version where he earns his money, in the meantime playing god/dictator to anyone that has the nerve to ask him a question.

His coding is shitty, doesnt apply to his own coding standards and every decent coder is horrified when opening a core file... BUT on the other hand, you my friend make an excellent point... i guess not everyone can or is willing to pay the Magento fee so you are stuck in the middle. After 3 days of continues debugging and rewriting code i have a perfectly good, bugfree 2.0.2.0 multistore with all the old data in it... that is what it takes to go from 2.0.0 to 2.0.2.0... and the developer should be ashamed of himself... very ashamed

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Post by gilaraujo » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:00 am

neufke wrote:Well, as a developer i wouldn't mind updating my own stores and write the learning curve down in a script. That way, everyone benefits, that is the basic thought of an open source community. And lets be honest, there is nothing wrong with someone earning good money from good work, is it in writing code for the project or as an extension developer.

The problem comes when the main developer writes code that can best be described as level 11-year old, waits for others to clean up the shit and then creates a new version where he earns his money, in the meantime playing god/dictator to anyone that has the nerve to ask him a question.

His coding is shitty, doesnt apply to his own coding standards and every decent coder is horrified when opening a core file... BUT on the other hand, you my friend make an excellent point... i guess not everyone can or is willing to pay the Magento fee so you are stuck in the middle. After 3 days of continues debugging and rewriting code i have a perfectly good, bugfree 2.0.2.0 multistore with all the old data in it... that is what it takes to go from 2.0.0 to 2.0.2.0... and the developer should be ashamed of himself... very ashamed
It would be presumptions of me to say i know whats under the "hood". i don't understand it - yet - and i wont pretend i do. However i understand usability, i understand standards, and i understand giving users options, even if they look not very reasonable from the perspective of the Developer/designer.
I feel at the moment Opecart suffers a bit from the "designer syndrome". The designer make something, HE Know how it works, its designed for what HE think are your needs, therefore it all makes sense. What the "Designer Syndrome" misses is one gets kinda biased on our own creation and assumptions are made that others know what we talking about or what we doing or how things are Done or setup. "How hard can it be" kinda thing.

ME, personally, I am struggling, this must have been my 20th fresh install, just testing this and that.

Example. I DONT want to use Reward points. Wheres the switch to turn it off? do i have to hard code it? extension? Shouldn't it be core functionality?

But i am in luck, i have a reasonable budget to play with extensions (+- 1000$) and time! i am working for myself as a upgrade on a different domain so i can take as long as i need.

I wonder... if Opencart will be forked some time soon. I really do.

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Post by osexperts » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:07 am

neufke wrote:Best thing to do would be for any extension writer to completely abandon OC and just let it bleed to dead...
If you are a developer that have invested a lot of time in working with OC and developing plugins, it doesnt seems to me as a good choice.
Well, OC has problems but comparing to other carts like Magento or Presta it is fast and the code base is quite small. Which makes it perfect as a starting point for decent product.
What I want to say is that, I think that better thing to do would be to fork OC (unless the license is not permitting that?) and make a real community driven version of this cart ;)

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Post by yodapt » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:15 am

I would fork it, but not alone.

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Post by gilaraujo » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:21 am

yodapt wrote:I would fork it, but not alone.
Well why not alone, after all is James and Daniel for OC. james codes in, daniel closes Issues with a smart "sod off" remark! seems easy work to me (BEING sarcastic!)

But a Fork would only make sense - assuming is allowed - if the ground philosophy would change. As in, Listening and trying - within reason - to implement what people suggests and need. otherwise would be the same in a different flavor.

I do assume, before hand, that ppl wont troll the forums just for the sake of it. If someone goes through he trouble to register -> post is because they have a need they would like addressed.

90% of ppl probably never bother to do that and give it up anyway.
Last edited by gilaraujo on Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by neufke » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:23 am

yodapt wrote:I would fork it, but not alone.
Forking for the sole purpose of creating another opencart is... well...

Maybe we should create an entirely new e-commerce cart system build from the ground up....

And as for Magento: i agree, it is large and heavy and doesn't even run on wampserver without hacking apache... but when run on a dedicated server it is serving my company (800+ LARGE shops all the e-commerce needs we ever need...)

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Post by gilaraujo » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:36 am

neufke wrote:
yodapt wrote:I would fork it, but not alone.
Forking for the sole purpose of creating another opencart is... well...

Maybe we should create an entirely new e-commerce cart system build from the ground up....

And as for Magento: i agree, it is large and heavy and doesn't even run on wampserver without hacking apache... but when run on a dedicated server it is serving my company (800+ LARGE shops all the e-commerce needs we ever need...)
I have nothing bad to say about Magento, except it felt a much bigger learning curve and more dedicated to a "corporate" kinda pockets. I guess if i had spent as much time to learn it as i did on Opencart maybe i wouldn't be saying this.
But even the extensions/Plugin pricing comparative vs their similarish functionality is a bit nuts. Like i said i think magento is not very "small fish" friendly.

Forking opencart and not allow the current extensions already developed to be "compatible" might be a bit silly. Also no need to reinvent the wheel, just make it rounder? :D

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Post by neufke » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:39 am

Hmmmm.. the more i think about it...

It would need a real mvc model, templating system and a new caching system that works...

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Post by yodapt » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:29 am

gilaraujo wrote: Forking opencart and not allow the current extensions already developed to be "compatible" might be a bit silly. Also no need to reinvent the wheel, just make it rounder? :D
Unless you just want to fork and rename OC, there is no way this can happen.

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Post by neufke » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:43 am

I wouldn't know where to start. Take the most simple example of the use of single and double quotes. Double quoted strings are parsed, single quoted strings aren't. If you, by OC standards keep the variables in,lets say, a query outside of the string then why the hell do you use double quotes so that plain text is still being parsed?? This stupid little example concerns each and every query used... (and thats a lot of unnecesary parsing)...

So you are saying that i should make a pull requrst of alllmost all files being fixed??? (For the record, single and double quotes is just basics)

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Post by yodapt » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:49 am

Not you alone of course, it can be done by several people knowing the issue from the start.

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Post by JAY6390 » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:58 am

While I understand the principle of the single/double quote argument above, you're forgetting that single quotes are used in the SQL queries themselves and that is why double quotes are used - so that you don't need to escape each one. Yes I'm aware that you could code it using a better method, i.e. prepared statements

While we're on the subject, I've seen the above arguments raised time and time again (by myself included in the past) and while everyone talks a good game about moving the project forward and possibly forking etc, one thing remains clear; Actions speak louder than words. I've only seen one person go ahead and do what everyone talks about, which resulted in Abante cart. That said, Abante cart to me seems to be whoring itself to affiliation more than any other opensource project I've worked with. Writing a perfect piece of software for this and designing its core etc takes a lot of planning and time. For those of you with time to do so, that's great but most people using OpenCart are making a living from selling using it, for it or by providing services to those that do and inevitably don't have the time to dedicate towards running and maintaining a large scale system such as this. Working with others also sounds appealing, but you need to know who can do what, have someone overseeing the project and assigning jobs etc and if you're planning on making it a business in the end you need to be clear on terms over who has what stake in said business and all be agreeing on that.

That said, if anyone does start a new cart, by all means come tell us about it. I for one would be happy to take a look and see what has been created as its great to see just how much variety there is between platforms. I suspect you'll face a number of pitfalls that OpenCart's overcome, albeit in a less than perfectly coded way.

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Post by neufke » Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:03 am

I understand... but the example was just to point out jow much work would be needed just to make the current code up to standards. Next i think some big choices would have to be made.... and that wpuld all be allright if there was some constructive discussion possible with the original author but as someone else stated: OC id the product of someone who mainly OR ignores the world OR gives shitty remarks. I dont think many real developers would like to start major overhaul with such an attitude... i know i wouldn't

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