Post by i2Paq » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:59 pm

Since June this year the EU has new legislation for webshops.

One main change is that in the order confirmation there should be a Return Form attached, or a link with text to the Return Rorm (RMA) on the webshop.

This link or attached form could be switch on/off when setting the "Accept Returns" in the Admin?

I know this looks like a feature request but it is mandatory for websops in the EU.

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Post by rph » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:58 pm

You can choose to withdraw from your order for any reason within this timeframe - even if you simply changed your mind. [...] This refund must include any shipping charges you paid when you made your purchase.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/sh ... dex_en.htm
Wow, what a horrible law. They're forcing ecommerce sites to take a loss on an order for reasons that might not have anything to do with the product or the order fullfilment.

Edit: Shops also have to explicitly opt out of covering return shipping costs in their terms or they're forced to cover it. They aren't given the right to inspect items before issuing a refund, either.

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Post by James » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:12 am

rph wrote:
You can choose to withdraw from your order for any reason within this timeframe - even if you simply changed your mind. [...] This refund must include any shipping charges you paid when you made your purchase.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/sh ... dex_en.htm
Wow, what a horrible law. They're forcing ecommerce sites to take a loss on an order for reasons that might not have anything to do with the product or the order fullfilment.

Edit: Shops also have to explicitly opt out of covering return shipping costs in their terms or they're forced to cover it. They aren't given the right to inspect items before issuing a refund, either.
Welcome to the stupidity of the EU! This sounds just as stupid as the cookie law (that very few took seriously)

I2paq I can't see anywhere it says compulsory on the checkout page? Maybe I missed it but can you provide more info and I'll take a look

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Post by OSWorX » Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:58 am

Basically this module here covers all legal affairs the EU and the national laws are requiring:
EU Compliance for Opencart Shops

In a few days a new module (or maybe part of this solution) will be published were every shopowner can provide secure forms for withdrawals.
This module will be able to offer an online form (if customer is logged prefilled with his order details) and also to send a link or an attached PDF with the email the customer requested - selectable by the shopowner and the customer himself.
If the online form is chosen, the shopowner will get a copy, the customer a copy and all is stored in the database.

Beside this: this 'new' law is not stupid!
It is more for customers like having the 'Zalando' behaviour: shopping many items, celebrating a party with the goods and sending all back.
And all at no cost for the customer!

With this new regulation the time periode for a withdrawal is the same as before: maximum 14 days from the moment the customer recieved the goods.
But now - and this is new - the customer HAS TO write something within 14 days!
And not sending the goods back - when he wants.

It is a good new regulation and wether stupid nor horrible.

btw: this formular has not be shown at the checkout or during.
But every shop has to offer something, either an online form, a document or a PDF - since the 14.06.2014 - 00:00
If not, high punishments are possible.

Edit: @rph: see my note about Zalando and their customers.
Shops may loose much money if many customers are only ordering and send back for fun!
This way a shop can force the customer to pay the return shipping costs - why not?
The coming months will see how many shops will do this way.

And: basically every shop (B2C) has to accept a withdrawal.
Except for digital goods - if the shop does not accept it not for this kind of goods, it has to be declared (e.g. TOS).

And the next regulations are on the way - starign with the 1st of January 2015.

I am lucky that I am living in the EU and that we have laws to protect customers.
Now shops are also a bit protected.

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Post by i2Paq » Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:07 am

James wrote:
i2paq I can't see anywhere it says compulsory on the checkout page? Maybe I missed it but can you provide more info and I'll take a look

J
I was misinformed about this form.

The only thing you need to provide is a digital form on your website, and or a paper form enclosed with every shipment you make.
Last edited by i2Paq on Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: and = or

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Post by OSWorX » Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:16 am

i2Paq wrote:I was misinformed about this form.

The only thing you need to provide is a digital form on your website, and a paper form enclosed with every shipment you make.
If not enclosed, shops can offer it online.
Faster and more secure and much userfriendly than a paper which might get lost ...

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Post by rph » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:09 am

OSWorX wrote:Edit: @rph: see my note about Zalando and their customers.
Shops may loose much money if many customers are only ordering and send back for fun!
This way a shop can force the customer to pay the return shipping costs - why not?
The ecommerce site has to refund the shipping cost to the customer. I think we can all agree this is a good policy in terms of damaged or misrepresented products but if the order was fulfilled in good faith why should the webshop be responsible for the covering the outgoing shipping? Why is the EU forcing all ecommerce sites to adopt the same business model? Why does a B2B wholesaler have to operate like a shop selling retail clothing?

The EU says they're trying to promote ecommerce but it's hard to see this having any effect beyond closing low-margin shops and increasing prices everywhere else.

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Post by OSWorX » Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:08 pm

rph wrote:Why does a B2B wholesaler have to operate like a shop selling retail clothing?
The laws make a clear difference between B2C and B2B.
We have talked here only about B2C!

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Post by i2Paq » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:51 pm

rph wrote:
OSWorX wrote:Edit: @rph: see my note about Zalando and their customers.
Shops may loose much money if many customers are only ordering and send back for fun!
This way a shop can force the customer to pay the return shipping costs - why not?
The ecommerce site has to refund the shipping cost to the customer. I think we can all agree this is a good policy in terms of damaged or misrepresented products but if the order was fulfilled in good faith why should the webshop be responsible for the covering the outgoing shipping? Why is the EU forcing all ecommerce sites to adopt the same business model? Why does a B2B wholesaler have to operate like a shop selling retail clothing?

The EU says they're trying to promote ecommerce but it's hard to see this having any effect beyond closing low-margin shops and increasing prices everywhere else.
The costs for returning an item is now for the customer, it used to be the store that had to pay it back.

In case of special shipping (Ensured) the shop only has to refund the standard costs.

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Post by rph » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:43 am

OSWorX wrote:
rph wrote:Why does a B2B wholesaler have to operate like a shop selling retail clothing?
The laws make a clear difference between B2C and B2B.
Do you have a link to the law? How do they handle business that do both wholesale and retail? Does the wholesale require tax IDs?

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Post by rph » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:00 am

i2Paq wrote:In case of special shipping (Ensured) the shop only has to refund the standard costs.
I don't know about the EU, but that would average around $6 to $13 in the US for a small package. Large orders can be substantially more. Shops running low margins or with small average orders could be hit very negatively.

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Post by OSWorX » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:18 am

rph wrote:
OSWorX wrote:
rph wrote:Why does a B2B wholesaler have to operate like a shop selling retail clothing?
The laws make a clear difference between B2C and B2B.
Do you have a link to the law? How do they handle business that do both wholesale and retail? Does the wholesale require tax IDs?
Will search for the link and when found post it here.

In the meantime, handling between (end)customers and wholeseller works this way (only valid for all customers inside the 28 countries of the EU):

a) if you are wholeseller you get a tax id, so called UID (or as in OC the VAT number) See the helper vat.php which checks if a UID is valid.
b) if you have a UID (some businesses does not need and get one) and it is valid, the wholeseller has not to pay any VAT (only the NET amount)
c) every wholeseller has to delare at least a minimum of 4 times a year the VAT against the fiscal authority and send them the amount (difference between GROSS and NET value)
d) if you are not a wholeseller, endcustomer or have no valid UID, you have to pay the GROSS amount (again here for wholesellers: they can declare the difference betwenn GROSS and NET and .. see #3)

So, if a shop handle both - retail and wholeseller - it is easy to make the difference between them: based on the UID which is a unique number over all 28 countries.

Important for every reseller is, at the moment the invoice is made and it shall be for a wholeseller, the UID has to be existing and be valid, otherwise the whole amount (GROSS) will be billed.
Especially in Germany wholeseller like to buy by invoice: order today - and pay later.

Because you mentioned the TAX-ID: there is a big difference between UID and TAX-ID.
UID is for buying goods outside your home country (e.g. you are a wholeseller from Germany and buy in France).
TAX-ID is the national number for declaring your taxes.

Maybe sound all a bit complecated, but it is not.

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Post by James » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:00 am

Beside this: this 'new' law is not stupid!
Based on i2paq original mention, it sounded outrageous! Adding a compulsory return form on the checkout page? Glad to read that it has now been understood not to be this.

This returns process is indeed good though - I believe that we have had this in the UK for some time though (eBay changed some policies a while back relating to this where it drew my attention, you can now only offer a min of 14 days for a buyer to return and shipping costs must be declared who is responsible).

I have seen bigger companies (Superdry, Debenhams I think) combining the shipping note into a returns note too.

What is the consensus then? Any changes needed? 2.0 Alpha will be released within a few days and need to know if any changes are needed for the roadmap.

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Post by James » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:03 am

@osworx if you have any spare time and would like to do a blog/rant/guidelines about EU regulations I'd be happy to put it up.

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Post by i2Paq » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:33 pm

James wrote: What is the consensus then? Any changes needed? 2.0 Alpha will be released within a few days and need to know if any changes are needed for the roadmap.

J
I believe that a link to the returns form on the store's website should be added to the Shipped notification message.
This is something that will be in a next EU law, at least that's how I see it + it is much more customer friendly.

And only when "Accept Returns" is made active in the store's settings.

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Post by OSWorX » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:10 pm

i2Paq wrote:
James wrote: What is the consensus then? Any changes needed? 2.0 Alpha will be released within a few days and need to know if any changes are needed for the roadmap.

J
I believe that a link to the returns form on the store's website should be added to the Shipped notification message.
This is something that will be in a next EU law, at least that's how I see it + it is much more customer friendly.

And only when "Accept Returns" is made active in the store's settings.
Clearly not!

Since the 14. June 2014 00:00:00 every customer who wants to return recieved (!!) goods, has to write a withdrawal and has to submit this form back to the shop.

This can be done either online (the most comfortable way) or by sending a formular (HTML or PDF) via email to the customer.
If send by email, the customer is responsible that the undersigned form is arriving the shop within 14 days - provably!
Means he can send the form back by email (unlucky if the email does not arrive ...) or by yellow post.

If made online, no signature is needed, the 14 day timefram is valid - and both, the customer and the shop are on the better and save(r) side.

This is the only way how it goes.
And no other possibility.

Simply offering the standard (or enhanced) return form is not enough.

And there is no 'next' EU-Law - this is valid and has to be fullfilled since the 14. June 2014 by every shop located inside the EU.

The next EU-Law is coming January 2015 and will handle the way taxes has to be paid by the shop.

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Post by i2Paq » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:50 pm

OSWorX wrote: Clearly not!

Since the 14. June 2014 00:00:00 every customer who wants to return recieved (!!) goods, has to write a withdrawal and has to submit this form back to the shop.
And this differs from what I'm saying?

If you have Accept returns switched on a link to this form is automatic added/provided in the Shipped e-mail notification.

S.I.M.P.L.E

If the e-mail gets lost the customer can then visit the shop and go to the Returns form, or send an e-mail to the shop requesting a RMA form via e-mail.

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Post by OSWorX » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:46 pm

i2Paq wrote:
OSWorX wrote: Clearly not!

Since the 14. June 2014 00:00:00 every customer who wants to return recieved (!!) goods, has to write a withdrawal and has to submit this form back to the shop.
And this differs from what I'm saying?

If you have Accept returns switched on a link to this form is automatic added/provided in the Shipped e-mail notification.

S.I.M.P.L.E

If the e-mail gets lost the customer can then visit the shop and go to the Returns form, or send an e-mail to the shop requesting a RMA form via e-mail.
It differs from that, that a RMA-form has not all fields the withdrawal-form has to have.

It is clearly stated what a withdrawal-form shall display and which fields the customer has to write down / fill out.
Guess you search for that and inform yourself what is needed to be a valid withdrawal.

Beside this, the shop has to offer a form which as easy to reach, easy to find.
Not sending emails and requesting and requesting and so on.
I am sure that every judge will have an eye on such practice.

End finally, requesting a RMA is NOT the same as a withdrawal.

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Post by i2Paq » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:03 pm

OSWorX wrote:
i2Paq wrote:
OSWorX wrote: Clearly not!

Since the 14. June 2014 00:00:00 every customer who wants to return recieved (!!) goods, has to write a withdrawal and has to submit this form back to the shop.
And this differs from what I'm saying?

If you have Accept returns switched on a link to this form is automatic added/provided in the Shipped e-mail notification.

S.I.M.P.L.E

If the e-mail gets lost the customer can then visit the shop and go to the Returns form, or send an e-mail to the shop requesting a RMA form via e-mail.
It differs from that, that a RMA-form has not all fields the withdrawal-form has to have.

It is clearly stated what a withdrawal-form shall display and which fields the customer has to write down / fill out.
Guess you search for that and inform yourself what is needed to be a valid withdrawal.

Beside this, the shop has to offer a form which as easy to reach, easy to find.
Not sending emails and requesting and requesting and so on.
I am sure that every judge will have an eye on such practice.

End finally, requesting a RMA is NOT the same as a withdrawal.
Aha!

So what OC needs is not only an RMA form but an withdrawal-form that fully complies with the EU-law.

That's where I went wrong, sorry for the confusion.

@James What OC needs is not only an RMA form but a withdrawal-form that fully complies with the EU-law.

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Post by eigenmuse » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:07 am

By the way. A suggestion for Opencart 2.0. Just include the options for EU law because Opencart has more and more users in the EU. Would make things easier for many non-programmers.

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