Post by bouncybee » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:12 pm

I've used open cart now for nearly 12 months and it's a very well structured/written piece of code and is a real contender for being one of the best e-commerce platforms out there, functionality is great and as new releases develop great new functionality appears.

The only thing which worries me as a programmer is the control and frequency of the releases, as it seems a little hap hazard and not well tested. And as soon as a bug is spotted another release is just dropped on the site.

Would it not be better to have a beta version and a tested version so people could be confident they are downloading a stable release of the code? This could be the difference from the system being a market leader to being a dead duck...

Would be interested to know what other people felt about this?

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Post by opencartisalright » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:29 am

YES

Ok now that that's out of the way.

I share your exact feelings. I like OpenCart. I think it's a nice cart, at least better than the others that I've personally used. There's a lot of reasons why I like OpenCart which I've mentioned before so I won't say again here, but needless to say I've settled on it and prefer to use it as a shopping cart.

But... the release of 1.5 has not been thought out, implemented, and managed well at all. I came to OpenCart quite late (during the 1.4.8 series). I can't speak for past releases, but i'm wondering if all major version upgrades have been managed just as poorly.

Firstly, OC 1.5 was first mentioned as far back as June 2010. Since then, there were numerous "it's almost here" quotes that never materialized which caused a lot of complaints and loss of credibility. Secondly, when 1.5 finally did arrive almost a year later, it seemed like it was rushed (despite being in the works for a year). We had no alpha versions, no beta versions, and just went straight to release candidates. These release candidates should have been the beta versions.

Then, we only had 3 of these release candidates until a so-called 1.5.0 "final" version was released, when in all honesty the 1.5.0 series should have been the release candidates themselves.

Now we are on 1.5.1, and in my opinion this should have been the first "official" release. But this 1.5.1 version has been re-uploaded about 4 or 5 times now which is causing yet more confusion amongst OC users.

I have no idea why the development and release of 1.5 was managed the way it was. It's a great cart yes. Daniel is a skilled coder, yes. However, just because it's a great cart with a skilled coder behind the wheel does not mean it's going to herald in a new era of open source shopping carts.

OpenCart as of now to me feels as if it's trying it's hardest to mature and enter the next stage of it's lifecycle, but for some reason it's stuck at a fork in the road and can't decide which path it wants to take. Will it continue to remain as a small project with a two man development team, one of whom is great at coding but whose public communication skills could use some polishing (being very politically correct there) and the other who has repeatedly mentioned they don't want OpenCart to start feeling like "work", or will it start to head in a more business oriented direction where things like public relations and a business like structure matter. Whichever path it chooses will for sure determine it's future success (or failure).
Last edited by opencartisalright on Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by SXGuy » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:34 am

To be honest. To much time is spent, moaning/quizing/whining over what should or shouldnt have been released as beta's or RC's. and little time is spent actually admiring the time spent in making such a nice shopping cart.

Do i want a shopping cart system for free with easy to use/easy to create modules/features? yes

Do i really care how its packaged as a release? not really.

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Post by opencartisalright » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:39 am

SXGuy wrote:To be honest. To much time is spent, moaning/quizing/whining over what should or shouldnt have been released as beta's or RC's. and little time is spent actually admiring the time spent in making such a nice shopping cart.

Do i want a shopping cart system for free with easy to use/easy to create modules/features? yes

Do i really care how its packaged as a release? not really.
All aboard the OpenCart bandwagon. First passenger...

I do admire that the cart is nice. I do admire that it is free. I do admire that it's easy to use. I do admire Daniel and Q for being skilled coders.

But just because I admire something doesn't mean I have to agree with every single aspect of it. Nothing's perfect, and I'm not going to overlook things that could be improved upon just because I happen to like other aspects of it.

How in the world do you expect anything in this world to be improved if people didn't "moan/whine/complain" as you put it. I suppose you never "moan/whine/complain" about anything in your life and settle for things that clearly could be improved upon. If the entire world thought like that, then god I'd hate to see what the world would look like.

You may call it moaning and whining, I call it constructive criticism. Those who aren't able to take constructive criticism very well are usually the ones who call it moaning and whining to try and attack the messenger instead of seriously considering the message.
Last edited by opencartisalright on Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by i2Paq » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:50 am

I think that we should return to the situation where Qphoria did a first testrun, then a pre-release.

When it looked like 99% OK it was publicly released.

atm. we have a release, fixes in the SVN but we have also new additions in the SVN which makes using the SVN for bugfixing quit useless difficult.

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Post by opencartisalright » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:59 am

i2Paq wrote:I think that we should return to the situation where Qphoria did a first testrun, then a pre-release.

When it looked like 99% OK it was publicly released.

atm. we have a release, fixes in the SVN but we have also new additions in the SVN which makes using the SVN for bugfixing quit,a , useless difficult.
Agreed, I like very much the way the 1.4.8 and 1.4.9 upgrades were managed.

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Post by Xsecrets » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:57 am

opencartisalright wrote:
i2Paq wrote:I think that we should return to the situation where Qphoria did a first testrun, then a pre-release.

When it looked like 99% OK it was publicly released.

atm. we have a release, fixes in the SVN but we have also new additions in the SVN which makes using the SVN for bugfixing quit,a , useless difficult.
Agreed, I like very much the way the 1.4.8 and 1.4.9 upgrades were managed.
that's because Q managed them. Daniel likes to pop out whatever he has at the moment and call it final when it really is not. Things will not get sane again until Daniel finishes the features he wants for 1.5.x and starts working on 1.6 and turns maintenance over to Q.

I agree that while it's nice that SVN has started to be used the fact that they are not branching it for new versions is certainly a problem.

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Post by Qphoria » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:24 am

opencartisalright wrote:Will it continue to remain as a small project with a two man development team, one of whom is great at coding but whose public communication skills could use some polishing (being very politically correct there) and the other who has repeatedly mentioned they don't want OpenCart to start feeling like "work"
Which one am I?

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Post by opencartisalright » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:41 am

Xsecrets wrote:that's because Q managed them. Daniel likes to pop out whatever he has at the moment and call it final when it really is not. Things will not get sane again until Daniel finishes the features he wants for 1.5.x and starts working on 1.6 and turns maintenance over to Q.
OK, 1.5 has enough new features now. Let's go ahead and turn it over to Q please... ;D
Qphoria wrote:Which one am I?
If you have to ask...

But I should have said both are great coders, because you both are. It's just IMO it takes more than that to ensure a successful project. At some point OpenCart is going to have to start feeling like work. ;)

Hope you'll stay on board when it does...

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Post by Xsecrets » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:46 am

It doesn't necessarily have to "feel more like work" to have better releases. What makes it feel like work is having hard deadlines. I don't think there should be hard deadlines, but that has nothing to do with releasing alpha's beta's and release candidates at the appropriate points in development.

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Post by Qphoria » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:49 am

I dont remember saying "I dont want it to feel like work".
I'll happily work at it if it means a better product but I too am limited to the final say on things

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Post by Johnathan » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:10 am

People bring this issue up every few weeks, and I think most people agree that OpenCart could use more structure in its release cycles. However, the thing to realize is that Daniel doesn't seem to see a problem with it, and nothing will change until he does.

So a friendly word of advice: feel free to vent your feelings, but then move on and spend your time on something productive. Otherwise you'll become overly frustrated with the issue and waste a bunch of your time with no results.

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Post by opencartisalright » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:45 am

Johnathan wrote:People bring this issue up every few weeks, and I think most people agree that OpenCart could use more structure in its release cycles. However, the thing to realize is that Daniel doesn't seem to see a problem with it, and nothing will change until he does.

So a friendly word of advice: feel free to vent your feelings, but then move on and spend your time on something productive. Otherwise you'll become overly frustrated with the issue and waste a bunch of your time with no results.
True. After all, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing the same way over and over again yet expecting a different result...and no use going insane over OpenCart.

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Post by merry » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:01 am

opencartisalright wrote:
Johnathan wrote:People bring this issue up every few weeks, and I think most people agree that OpenCart could use more structure in its release cycles. However, the thing to realize is that Daniel doesn't seem to see a problem with it, and nothing will change until he does.

So a friendly word of advice: feel free to vent your feelings, but then move on and spend your time on something productive. Otherwise you'll become overly frustrated with the issue and waste a bunch of your time with no results.
True. After all, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing the same way over and over again yet expecting a different result...and no use going insane over OpenCart.
It's also possible that there is a method to the madness that we just can't perceive. After all, OpenCart has grown faster than almost any program out there... Daniel has his eye on the Big Picture. These little complaints must sound like gnats buzzing to him.

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Post by opencartisalright » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:01 pm

merry wrote:It's also possible that there is a method to the madness that we just can't perceive. After all, OpenCart has grown faster than almost any program out there... Daniel has his eye on the Big Picture. These little complaints must sound like gnats buzzing to him.

Kerry
Firstly, is your name Kerry or Merry? Because your signature says Kerry but your screen name says Merry. It's a bit confusing.

Secondly, as a professional writer/reviewer (which i'm assuming you are), I would imagine you look at things objectively, giving praise when it's due and exposing faults when it's necessary.

We are talking about a more structured release cycle here, which I think is important for both end-users and developers. While it's quite possible Daniel has his eye on some "big picture", that doesn't mean the littler details such as a more structured release cycle should be ignored. And if he looks at his customers (yes, people who use his cart are customers regardless of whether it's free or not) and thinks of them as insignificant gnats buzzing around, then I don't really have much confidence in his "big picture" idea anymore.

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Post by SXGuy » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:21 pm

opencartisalright wrote:
SXGuy wrote:To be honest. To much time is spent, moaning/quizing/whining over what should or shouldnt have been released as beta's or RC's. and little time is spent actually admiring the time spent in making such a nice shopping cart.

Do i want a shopping cart system for free with easy to use/easy to create modules/features? yes

Do i really care how its packaged as a release? not really.
All aboard the OpenCart bandwagon. First passenger...

I do admire that the cart is nice. I do admire that it is free. I do admire that it's easy to use. I do admire Daniel and Q for being skilled coders.

But just because I admire something doesn't mean I have to agree with every single aspect of it. Nothing's perfect, and I'm not going to overlook things that could be improved upon just because I happen to like other aspects of it.

How in the world do you expect anything in this world to be improved if people didn't "moan/whine/complain" as you put it. I suppose you never "moan/whine/complain" about anything in your life and settle for things that clearly could be improved upon. If the entire world thought like that, then god I'd hate to see what the world would look like.

You may call it moaning and whining, I call it constructive criticism. Those who aren't able to take constructive criticism very well are usually the ones who call it moaning and whining to try and attack the messenger instead of seriously considering the message.
My response was in reply to many of the threads started previously, as no real discussion has ever been made on this subject. Until now obviously.

Im not one of these people that do not question anything or want to make things better, i just wanted to put the past comments in to perspective.

And in reality, what botheres me more, is the new module layout structure from 1.5.0.5 to 1.5.1, i really think it should have either been done in 1.5.0 or left for 1.6. I dont believe any major change that affects modules should be made during the same version number unless really needed.

Something like that, to me, is more important.

Maybe this senario only leads to strengthen your own argument. i Dont know.

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Post by Xsecrets » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:33 pm

SXGuy wrote: My response was in reply to many of the threads started previously, as no real discussion has ever been made on this subject. Until now obviously.

Im not one of these people that do not question anything or want to make things better, i just wanted to put the past comments in to perspective.

And in reality, what botheres me more, is the new module layout structure from 1.5.0.5 to 1.5.1, i really think it should have either been done in 1.5.0 or left for 1.6. I dont believe any major change that affects modules should be made during the same version number unless really needed.

Something like that, to me, is more important.

Maybe this senario only leads to strengthen your own argument. i Dont know.
actually there have been a few discussions about it. There were even a few where Daniel seemed like he was relenting and said that after the 1.5.0 release would look at making some changes and bring more people on board to help with making releases smoother, but I guess that's out the window. Also if you've been around long enough you'll realize that things like the major change from 1.5.0 to 1.5.1 are not uncommon. The entire theme system what changed from 1.3.2 to 1.3.3 there were many big system level changes in the early 1.4.x releases.

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Post by mommaroodles » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:43 pm

opencartisalright wrote:
merry wrote:It's also possible that there is a method to the madness that we just can't perceive. After all, OpenCart has grown faster than almost any program out there... Daniel has his eye on the Big Picture. These little complaints must sound like gnats buzzing to him.

Kerry
Firstly, is your name Kerry or Merry? Because your signature says Kerry but your screen name says Merry. It's a bit confusing.

Secondly, as a professional writer/reviewer (which i'm assuming you are), I would imagine you look at things objectively, giving praise when it's due and exposing faults when it's necessary.

We are talking about a more structured release cycle here, which I think is important for both end-users and developers. While it's quite possible Daniel has his eye on some "big picture", that doesn't mean the littler details such as a more structured release cycle should be ignored. And if he looks at his customers (yes, people who use his cart are customers regardless of whether it's free or not) and thinks of them as insignificant gnats buzzing around, then I don't really have much confidence in his "big picture" idea anymore.
I have to agree with everything opencartisalright has said, I don't think I could have said this any better! OC definitely still appears to be in development stage and is by no means suitable for a live store and at this point and time due to the frequency of the releases does leave me wondering whether I should even attempt using this software on a live production store.! The last thing I want to do is be spending my life trying to upgrade to the latest release. For someone who has highly modified store with approx 24 000 products - the constant upgrading, I can only imagine must be a nightmare.!!

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Post by opencartisalright » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:55 pm

mommaroodles wrote:I have to agree with everything opencartisalright has said, I don't think I could have said this any better! OC definitely still appears to be in development stage and is by no means suitable for a live store and at this point and time due to the frequency of the releases does leave me wondering whether I should even attempt using this software on a live production store.! The last thing I want to do is be spending my life trying to upgrade to the latest release. For someone who has highly modified store with approx 24 000 products - the constant upgrading, I can only imagine must be a nightmare.!!
Firstly thanks. :)

Secondly, just so everyone's on the same page, 1.4.9.5 is very stable and quite a capable shopping cart. I'm only referring to the newly released 1.5 series.

Of course as time goes on the 1.5 series will mature as the 1.4 series has. My point in all of this was just that the whole 1.5 series release cycle has not been (is being) managed well, and from what I hear from others on the forums, neither has any other major (and sometimes even minor) releases been.

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Post by Daniel » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:49 pm

1.5.1 is very stable a part from a few silly mistake in the first 2 days. the bugs reported is back to 0 for now. has not been that way since 1.5.0 was released.

people keep taking about not stable all the time but no script is. you can bug test for years and when the script is on a live site then you find bugs.

that's the whole point of having an error log. so you can can whittle down the bugs until its very rare they come up.

the big difference with opencart is that they are fixed the same day and you can use svn to fix the stuff your self or wait for the next release.

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