Post by i2Paq » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:27 pm

Xsecrets wrote:
Qphoria wrote:
So I've been saying it for a while.. 6 months. If we go earlier, then thats great.. but hounding us weekly for a release isn't going to change anything. This is a cart system designed for you as entrepreneurs to start your own online business and make money. The existing versions of the cart are more than able to help you with that and that should be your main focus for now
I think the biggest problem is that Daniel actually comes out and gives a date, which is generally pretty unrealistic. It would be very nice I think as someone suggested instead of saying a date/timeframe to go ahead an spend a couple of minutes a week posting on the blog. Just something short like it's been a great week the new layout system is coming along something.

I think part of what is happening is that we have several people here who came from oscommerce/zen where there have been promises, but no new releases for years. I am confident that this won't happen here, but I've been around long enough to see how the release cycle works where some of the newer people haven't .
I agree, a weekly update on the blog on how things are getting along would help a lot and for those waiting for the next release there is something to chew on.

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Post by Qphoria » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:32 pm

Daniel is the one coding the main changes to 1.5.0 so I have no knowledge on his schedule. He's a busy man. I give updates when I'm doing the majority coding because of the luxury of a train ride where I have nothing else to do but sit and type it up on my netbook. So no promises. I know Daniel can be overzealous on dates but it comes down to maybe what his thoughts are at the time, and "bobs your uncle" (<--- for the brits)

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Post by Daniel » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:02 am

After 1.5.0 we can change how we do things.

I want some project managment software thats free.

where we can add issues, features, svn, etc..

maybe i can take a backseat and set so goals and let others work on oc. i can possible go in a clean up the code at the end.

I think zoho is quite good:

http://www.zoho.com/projects/index1.html

not sure how open it is though. I would like to others to see what is happening.

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:09 am

NOTE !!! ::: ooops, Daniel replied so some of the following my no longer apply :::

Please take this with a pinch of salt, because I'm going to come straight out and say this because I only want to see opencart get better.

OC is very good at being a cart and at coding. However, the management is wanting.
phew, got that out.

To be honest, I really do understand your (Q) and Daniel's position. And since I do, I try to keep most of my comments to what could/can make oc better even though they might be wrong.

I realize that programmers are artists, well actually poets. Yet, being a great poet doesn't mean you are the best seller.
The best selling poet is the poet who has the best management and marketing skills not necessarily the best poet.

Because of this thread, I went with 1.4.9.2 instead of waiting for 1.5.
And it is not because of the warnings of that the code will come out when it comes out but rather because I could tell that you (Q) and Daniel were listening to people posting here.
It was dead clear obvious that the code was going to be late and off schedule to me.

To prevent future problems, I'd suggest:
- switching to a framework (as per the discussion happening in another thread)
- switching to M's suggestion of basic project management organization
- switching to M's suggestion of a milestone release tracking
- switching to a bug tracker (or is there one)
- switching to a community based request and polling system for ideas for the next version
- putting strategic teams into place
- a "read only" developers blog or thread (since it has been proven by myself and others that this thread has gone every on the map)

Also 2 questions:
What does Daniel invision for oc?
What is the MVV (Mission, Values, Vision) for oc?

It would be nice to have these questions answered so that the users and developers could understand what you guys are trying to accomplish rather than just guess. The above questions are basically just good management practice.

So, I'm basically suggesting to implement a controlled management style that will help control this release hungry mob and keep the developers focused.

lolo, the added benefit would be that I'd shut up :laugh:

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:14 am

How about JIRA, they have an opensource option and is pretty good.

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Post by Josemi » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:17 am

Or Mantisbt or trac

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Post by i2Paq » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:31 am

SapporoGuy wrote:lolo, the added benefit would be that I'd shut up :laugh:
Yes, please do ;D

No seriously, I think your positive comments a more then welcome :)

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Post by Qphoria » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:35 am

I like github better than all those.. but thats just me

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:45 am

Thanks i2Paq !!!
;D

I'm trying to be helpful, however, I do realize at times that I might be misunderstood.

My biggest concern has been that I might have caused the "why bother :-\ " feeling.
I have had that happen to me quite a few times to me and I really hope that I haven't caused that feeling for D and Q.

Coding is hard enough, yet, to have a couple of jerks ruin your day is the best motivators.

SInce, D stopped by and make a few comments, I think that maybe we should move some of our ideas, requests to a "Progess towards v2.0" thread. lolo, I should have been posting my comments there originally ;)

Could we get a mod to create a "v2.x" forum so that we can build threads in the relevant place?

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Post by nittaku » Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:38 am

Daniel,

when OpenCart version 1.5 will be released?
because I need an feature affiliate system, and reward points.
two features whether free or not ? I need a picture of it because if not for free I will not throw waste time by waiting continues.


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Last edited by i2Paq on Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by gocreative » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:21 am

I can't be bothered quoting everyone but essentially my view is that, regardless of the size of a project or the team working on it, project management is an essential part of it. Qphoria, you suggested that priorities changed based on feedback etc. This leads me to two suggestions:

1) Ask for user input on new features/improvements prior to working on each release (something I've suggested previously on many occasions)
2) Don't change from your original plans once they're underway. If there is an issue that absolutely prevents you from completing one of your objectives without blowing out the timeline, leave that objective out completely and work on it for future releases. If users ask for a change midway through a feature, leave it out. Basically stick to what you planned to do unless there are hiccups; ensure above all else that the timeframe is met, and then anything that doesn't make it into that version can wait for the next version.

I understand your reasons for working the way you do, and appreciate the scale and complexity of the task, however it is for those very reasons that the project needs some version goals and more structured upgrades.

As for Sapporo's suggestion about teams, I would be more than willing to assist with the marketing or design aspects of OpenCart. Just tell me what you need me to do and I'll do it. Perhaps this will also give me more insight into how the project comes together and why things happen the way they do.

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:08 am

Let's get a v2 forum section on the forums ;D

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Post by Xsecrets » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:35 am

oneilldesign wrote: I understand your reasons for working the way you do, and appreciate the scale and complexity of the task, however it is for those very reasons that the project needs some version goals and more structured upgrades.
doesn't really sound like you do. You are obviously a very business oriented person and you are looking at it from a very business perspective. OpenCart is an opensource project not a business. And yes there are many other open source projects that are run much more like a business, but those are either backed by a business or have grown over time and matured to run more that way. OpenCart is still a rather young project. I was not around for it, but I imagine that wordpress 0.1 0.2 etc were not really strictly managed either.

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Post by gocreative » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:29 pm

Xsecrets wrote:I imagine that wordpress 0.1 0.2 etc were not really strictly managed either.
I'd be very surprised if that were the case. Why do people have the idea that an open source project should be governed any differently than a commercial project? What is different about it other than the fact that the creators are not receiving a salary? The project aims and deliverables are the same. Timeframes still exist even if they don't have the same constraints such as developer availability. A project is a project and should be managed with the same set of principles and structures in all instances.

Tell me why it's not possible for Daniel and Qphoria to get together and come up with the following:
  • List of goals (short, medium and long-term)
  • Release schedule for major versions (biannual, annual etc)
  • Facility for users to vote on new/improved features (if that is an appropriate means of determining goals)
  • Features mapped to versions
  • Blog/other form of centralised communication to update users more regularly on release progress

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Post by Qphoria » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:17 pm

oneilldesign wrote:
Xsecrets wrote:I imagine that wordpress 0.1 0.2 etc were not really strictly managed either.
I'd be very surprised if that were the case. Why do people have the idea that an open source project should be governed any differently than a commercial project? What is different about it other than the fact that the creators are not receiving a salary? The project aims and deliverables are the same. Timeframes still exist even if they don't have the same constraints such as developer availability. A project is a project and should be managed with the same set of principles and structures in all instances.

Tell me why it's not possible for Daniel and Qphoria to get together and come up with the following:
  • List of goals (short, medium and long-term)
  • Release schedule for major versions (biannual, annual etc)
  • Facility for users to vote on new/improved features (if that is an appropriate means of determining goals)
  • Features mapped to versions
  • Blog/other form of centralised communication to update users more regularly on release progress
Just to hear the reasons.... what do you get out of knowing what is next? There are quite a few professional version watchers out there. Always holding out for the "next" version. I know it's our nature to be inquisitive and know more... but if I said gift vouchers are coming in 1.5.0 and it will be out in 6 months.. what would your next step be?

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Post by gocreative » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:45 pm

I'm actually not much a version-watcher. I've used OpenCart 1.3.4 but that's it. I've never upgraded (other than a couple of security/payment bug fixes) and don't intend to unless they stop working or a client need cannot be met. I'm also not waiting for v1.5 for any particular reason as I'm not developing any ecommerce websites at the moment.

As for what I get out of knowing what is next:
  • In the event that I was waiting for the 'latest and greatest' (which I will be at some point), knowing that a particular feature is due on a set date would mean I could factor that into my quoting/development timeframe.
  • In your example, if you said that gift vouchers were six months away and these were a requirement for a client, I would see if a module existed, and if not, pay someone to create it.
  • Along the same lines, I could avoid unnecessary costs and/or delays by holding off development of a feature that is only X weeks away.
  • If I wanted to upgrade my existing stores because they could not support a particular feature that a client required, and it was too costly or time-consuming to develop a custom module/workaround, I could advise the client that on X date I would be able to meet their needs if they were prepared to wait.
  • Knowing the upcoming features and their release date may assist me in promoting a site redevelopment to potential clients (i.e. 'Your site doesn't have X, but OpenCart does').
  • For existing clients running OpenCart for a few years, I may be able to promote the extra features/security/other reasons to upgrade their site and in turn sell the idea of a new design along with the software upgrade.

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Post by Gilmore » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:56 pm

Well I am specifically waiting for 1.5 to come out so I won't have to hear people say, WHEN WILL IT BE OUT! :laugh:

Really I am waiting for the Affiliate Program and some of the other tweaks and such, but mainly the AP.

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Post by HTMLCSSNoob » Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:13 pm

Gilmore wrote:Well I am specifically waiting for 1.5 to come out so I won't have to hear people say, WHEN WILL IT BE OUT! :laugh:.
Yeah, you won't have to hear them say "WHEN WILL 1.5.0 BE OUT"...It will be more like "WHEN WILL 1.5.1 BE OUT!" :laugh:

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Post by op_user » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:43 pm

I've seen it as common practice for developers to set a version number as feature locked because it limits the probability of new bugs and improves stability per release. It's better for 1.5.0 to trade extra features for stability. Plus, that means less delayed releases.

P.S
I think the biggest selling point of OpenCart 1.5 is its multi-tiered affiliate system.

Also, trac (http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracDownload) might be a good project management / bug tracking solution

I am waiting for Open Cart 3.0


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Post by TAC » Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:04 pm

Hi everyone,

Back on page 25 of this thread it was suggested
I think it's time this thread is split up into:

1) information about v1.5.0 from Daniel/Qphoria
2) general conversations about OpenCart.
but so far it doesn't seem it has happened. I think it would be a good idea because there must be 100's of us following this thread and every day there are more posts and we get excited that maybe this is the day.... :laugh:

Then read lots of posts about the management of OC, what 1.5 might have, special requests etc. only to find that today is not the day :(

I'm not saying this thread isn't a really good 'conversation' and all the points are interesting and valid. It is all good stuff but could we have a separate one that just says simple facts about the progress, or otherwise, so we can just check on that quickly?

It might be called something like "Status of 1.5 Release" and then only Daniel and the guys working on it can post and if there's nothing to report then so be it.

I initially thought I'd wait for 1.5 because I've been learning OpenCart for a couple of months now and I do struggle with it because I'm not a developer/coder and adding mods, customising the template etc. has caused me problems. It seemed imminent too but this thread made me decide to keep on with 1.4.9.1 and I'm glad I did because I keep learning new things. With ZenCart and PrestaShop I had given up by now!

Hope I've made sense! :)
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