Post by gocreative » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:53 pm

I think it's time this thread is split up into:

1) information about v1.5.0 from Daniel/Qphoria
2) general conversations about OpenCart.

I'm as guilty as anyone for posting in the wrong place.

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Post by SapporoGuy » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:46 pm

+1 on the suggestion!

I guess I got carried away like other people after seeing people posting about this and that which was really on topic.

This thread probably should have been read only ;D

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Post by TAC » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:15 pm

I think it's time this thread is split up into:

1) information about v1.5.0 from Daniel/Qphoria
I agree too if it's worth anything ;)

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Post by sys » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:30 am

Maybe I'll repeat.
But I think it's time for the release opencart 1.5.0
Because I and many people are waiting for this release.
I suspended the establishment of new stores and was hoping to get release month ago, but again I hear only promises. I understand this is free, but very much want to see anything.

No need to to delay release further.
You never create an absolutely perfect product.

Let it be only a demo, but people need to see.
The only way to avoid mistakes and make the perfect product.

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Post by Xsecrets » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:38 am

sys wrote:Maybe I'll repeat.
But I think it's time for the release opencart 1.5.0
Because I and many people are waiting for this release.
I suspended the establishment of new stores and was hoping to get release month ago, but again I hear only promises. I understand this is free, but very much want to see anything.
well if you were expecting it a month ago because you were following this thread you should have also seen several people say more than a few times don't hold projects waiting on it.

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Post by d7a7z7e7d » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:53 am

I sure hope Daniel and Qphoria can see that these repetitive release date requests just means that they've done an outstanding job with OpenCart. So much so that these people literally can't wait for the next release ;)

But for those that are unaware, the release date once again is, in true Blizzard style, when it's done. As Xsecrets mentioned, don't be afraid to get your store up with 1.4.9.1. It is a stable and mature version that you can use NOW.

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Post by gocreative » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:16 am

That all depends on whether you're waiting for the new features specifically. I'm a bit on the fence here - I understand the time and effort involved, so I'm not going to pester for a release date. But at the same time, waiting with no end in sight is obviously difficult for some people who want to offer their clients the latest and greatest product. So I'm advocating a bit more structure and planning in the release schedule rather than being told 'soon' and 'a ways off'. Those sorts of timeframes are meaningless.

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Post by HTMLCSSNoob » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:46 am

I think the reason some people are so anxious about the release date is because there have been about 3 instances where Daniel has said "1.5.0 will be released on such and such date", only to have that day come and go without anything actually being released. You can't blame him for it because almost everyone does it from time to time.

It probably would have been better if from the beginning Daniel just said "It will be ready when it's ready" and let that be the end of it. Then people really couldn't complain that 1.5.0 is late because there wouldn't have been any expectations for release dates.

So to everyone who's waiting on 1.5.0, It will be ready when it's ready!

As it is i'm happy with 1.4.9.2. I know 1.5.0 is gonna be adding a lot of new features, but as everyone has said it would be smarter to hold off on using it for live production sites until at least 1.5.1 or 1.5.2 as 1.5.0 is most likely going to contain some bugs that need ironing out. But there will always be early adopters of technology, and look what it gets them... An iPhone 4 that loses signal when you hold it a certain way and screen that turns yellow because of the adhesive they used to glue it on to the darn phone!

Patience people, patience...

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Post by gocreative » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:28 am

I guess I'm just saying I'd prefer to hear 'Two months' and have that timeframe met rather than 'One month' (not met) followed by 'Soon', 'Soon', 'Soon'.

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Post by Qphoria » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:27 pm

oneilldesign wrote:I guess I'm just saying I'd prefer to hear 'Two months' and have that timeframe met rather than 'One month' (not met) followed by 'Soon', 'Soon', 'Soon'.
Agreed. Thats why I like to give no dates

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:08 pm

I brought this issue up before and will mention it again. ;)

I truly think that people can deal with a time line much better if there is communication between the developers and the end users. As an end user I really don't expect ABC to be released on XYZ date. Those that do are well ... unrealistic.

I would suggest a simple blog / thread where ONLY the developers can post. A simple weekly update scaling to every few days when a release is coming close to a possible candidate.

The opposite would be the oscommerce system where myself included have been waiting years after reading oodles of posts by the development team mentioning soon. It's been been close to 4 years since I last developed anything for oscommerce and I have only seen 3 alphas posted all under the comment of 3.0 being released "soon". In NO way I am saying that this will happen here.

oscommerce's biggest liability and loss of market has been due to transparency and lack of releases. Because of this, I have come across several forks and variations. Yes, I do know why zencart came about and personally know who created the original logo and name.

Even though coding is only a hobby of mine, I still have some how experienced many things within the opensource community. I keep posting many ideas here hoping that opencart will avoid similar problems and issues.

Once again, If there is not enough time in the day to keep the public updated or at least in the know, then why not spread some of the duties of daily site / forum maintenance to the more active and invested members here? Create teams like I suggested in another thread and such. ... take a chance and let your code become even greater :)

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Post by gocreative » Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:50 pm

SapporoGuy wrote:As an end user I really don't expect ABC to be released on XYZ date. Those that do are well ... unrealistic.
I don't think that's unrealistic at all. When I quote on a project for a client, I pad the timeframe just slightly because nothing ever goes 100% to plan. And then when I deliver ahead of the deadline, it's been a successful project and the client is pleased.

To ensure that a deadline can be set and then met, the developer needs only to scope the project completely before any work is undertaken. Sure, issues arise, problems take longer to solve than expected, the scope may change slightly and so on, but if the planning is done properly then I don't think it's all that hard to set an approximate date. If you think it's going to take a month, say two months, or even three months. At least the end user has some idea of the timeframe.

The other benefit of scoping the project (for each version and future versions) is to ensure that there are no instances where the developer decides at the last minue 'let's throw this feature in as well'. The scope should be adhered to and that would govern the timeframe.

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:38 pm

OD,

Essentially, I am in agreement with you and your comments.

However, looking at opencart and understanding that it is basically a 1(2-3) man, who is possibly making a living with a normal day job, effort I mentioned that it is unrealistic.

So, if opencart were a full time make a living by system for the developers, then yes, they should be following a release schedule. If they are not, and if they like to say "soon" then they will have to live with the fact that eventually their will be problems that their current system has created.

Which is why I brought up a team system and wrote the above post.

I haven't been here long enough to figure out the inner team nor do I know what the focus and future of opencart is.
I keep leaving these forums with a feeling that even though the coding is good the management is ??? what ???
But, once again, I have no real ideal of what Daniel is hoping to accomplish with opencart beyond thinking that he is trying to provide a really dam good system for people to use. I really appreciate that.

However, I am worried that as more and more people come to opencart that there are going to be people who will walk away and zen it.

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Post by HTMLCSSNoob » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:50 pm

oneilldesign wrote:I don't think that's unrealistic at all. When I quote on a project for a client, I pad the timeframe just slightly because nothing ever goes 100% to plan. And then when I deliver ahead of the deadline, it's been a successful project and the client is pleased.
Agreed. Under promising and over delivering is one of the basics of providing good customer service and ensuring your clients stay satisfied.

I can only imagine that Daniel has been delayed releasing 1.5.0 because he is filling it with tons of goodies that will awe and amaze us. ;D

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Post by mystifier » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:25 pm

I am a big fan of wordpress and have many hobby sites. Updates are a necessary evil. Because I generally hack things to suit myself and use numerous add-ons, it always breaks things but, after an adjustment period, it usually seems worth it in the end. I would say that their release rate is perfect. Bug-fix releases aside, there is a new release every year or so.

I do though, enjoy following the next release progress; lots of progress bars gradually trickling along like an install progress; information about all tickets, open and closed, so that I can understand exactly what is changing:
http://core.trac.wordpress.org/milestone/3.1

As with all aspects, they do everything right... but then, they have a large development team to co-ordinate. It is likely the responsibilty of one person just to maintain the said tracking system.

I am not hanging on 1.5. The shopping cart is but one component of what I am putting together and changing templates will also mean me making the same changes in my (wordpress!) front-end and (Microsoft Visual Studio/Access runtime) back-end. Chances are, I may not upgrade for six months.

I do sympathize though, with people joining Opencart and not even knowing if the release is imminent, as has seemed the case a few times, or many weeks away, as has proved the case a few times. It makes it very difficult to plan and I am sure there are many people who, Christmas upon us, now wish they had gone with 1.4.9 some time ago.

A relatively stable 1.5 in January is massively more desirable than a flaky release next Tuesday but it would be nice to have the basic roadmap updated, ideally with very pessimistic timescales.

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Post by HTMLCSSNoob » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:28 pm

SapporoGuy wrote:However, I am worried that as more and more people come to opencart that there are going to be people who will walk away and zen it.
Why do you think that people might abandon OC for Zen? Good lord I can't imagine going back to Zen after coming over to OpenCart...

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:35 pm

zen it
I'm using the word use as a verb; ie google ... basically did not want to use the word "fork".

zencart is especially a hot topic for me ... ::) (I have never used it for personal/client use.)

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:40 pm

but then, they have a large development team to co-ordinate. It is likely the responsibilty of one person just to maintain the said tracking system.
Hence my badgering for various opencart teams:
- forums
- main site
- extensions
- marketing
- bug/feature requests/etc ... using some sort of project management software
- security (hardening and testing) this team can also be doubled worked for beta testing
- bluesky/creativity (not all users can code but do normally have ideas)

Basically a layer of management to reduce the daily routine of community maintenance to help the developers do what they do best ;D

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Post by Qphoria » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:05 pm

oneilldesign wrote:
SapporoGuy wrote:if the planning is done properly then I don't think it's all that hard to set an approximate date. If you think it's going to take a month, say two months, or even three months. At least the end user has some idea of the timeframe.
The other benefit of scoping the project (for each version and future versions) is to ensure that there are no instances where the developer decides at the last minue 'let's throw this feature in as well'. The scope should be adhered to and that would govern the timeframe.
This is the reality of developing a large project vs a smaller custom job..
Sure when I have a payment module job, I give them a timeframe because I've done it many times and know how long it takes. The job is specific and can't go any longer than its own spec allows.

But for a cms/cart platform, we start with 10 things and an estimated date.
We "communicate" with the users and find that they have other dislikes
We try to accomodate which throws the schedule off. Yes I agree we should just stick to the plan, but again this is the reality that it doesn't work that way.

Then as we dig in the code we start brainstorming ourselves about how if xxx was done differently then yyy would be better in the long run. So then we have to start figuring that out. Finally we decide on what needs to happen 2 weeks later, and then we find people saying they'd rather have this instead of this.. what if we did this... or how about this..

We also have our own ideas as well that we'd like to add. It's a never ending process.

1.5.0 was estimated to be released 3 weeks ago, but then we started looking into people's ideas for layouts and designing from the admin. So Daniel looked into adding a layout manager from within the admin, which looks pretty cool. But then realized for this to work, the old layout system from 1.3.2 and earlier needs to be used and works better overall. So now we have to do that first, which is a big change. Then the layout system needs to be completed. Then other things like global options, affiliate module, gift vouchers, wishlist, product attributes, etc all have to be fine tuned.

So I've been saying it for a while.. 6 months. If we go earlier, then thats great.. but hounding us weekly for a release isn't going to change anything. This is a cart system designed for you as entrepreneurs to start your own online business and make money. The existing versions of the cart are more than able to help you with that and that should be your main focus for now

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Post by Xsecrets » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:15 pm

Qphoria wrote:
So I've been saying it for a while.. 6 months. If we go earlier, then thats great.. but hounding us weekly for a release isn't going to change anything. This is a cart system designed for you as entrepreneurs to start your own online business and make money. The existing versions of the cart are more than able to help you with that and that should be your main focus for now
I think the biggest problem is that Daniel actually comes out and gives a date, which is generally pretty unrealistic. It would be very nice I think as someone suggested instead of saying a date/timeframe to go ahead an spend a couple of minutes a week posting on the blog. Just something short like it's been a great week the new layout system is coming along something.

I think part of what is happening is that we have several people here who came from oscommerce/zen where there have been promises, but no new releases for years. I am confident that this won't happen here, but I've been around long enough to see how the release cycle works where some of the newer people haven't .

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