Post by Xsecrets » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:50 pm

I got a real kick out of this.
Magento Performance: Myth vs. Reality

basically they confirm that for halfway decent performance you need a dedicated server. Even then the sites he points to as examples of fast loading magento sites take twice as long to load as an OpenCart site does on halfway decent shared hosting.

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Post by Moggin » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:26 am

Yes, it’s more like “Myth=Reality” !

The advice is mainly good stuff, but you start to wonder why speeding up the site is such a big deal…??
And if your cart requires a dedicated server but other carts are speedy enough without … surely you’d want to know why. I don’t think it’s enough to say ‘if you’re serious….’

In fairness, I saw a couple of good magento sites recently (large-ish companies). They looked fine, but the second one hung on checkout. Oops...

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Post by Moggin » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:37 am

I just visited a swish, new online store, based in London. Beautifully designed, plenty of features, perhaps too many to be useful, but -

Tried to checkout...
Still there 2 mins later...'loading' symbol ticks round.....
'There was a problem. Please try again later'.
Customer leaves.

Of course....it was a Magento store. ::)

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Post by SapporoGuy » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:50 pm

psst, they don't want you to use your own server ;)

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Post by Moggin » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:52 am

SapporoGuy wrote:psst, they don't want you to use your own server ;)
:laugh: yeah, someone should tell 'em ...

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Post by caleb » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:42 am

While I agree that Magento takes a lot more resources to run than an Open Cart store, Magento is also a much more complete solution. There is no way you could run a complex store on Open Cart (sorry, it is a great product though). Open Cart is still far too limited in it's ability to control inventory. Open Cart also offers zero CMS at this point. Magento handles all the short comings of Open Cart with ease. Yes, you have to have more server resources for Magento, you also have to know how to properly tune your servers, you can't just throw it up on any LAMP hosting account like you can Open Cart. Each of these two carts have their place at this point, to claim one fulfills all the needs would be a lie, plain and simple.

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:52 pm

Generally speaking:
Why should people have to tune a server to use something?
That is a problem then for the main source code. People should get a fairly fast bit of code out of the box.

IF I buy a diesel truck, I expect horsepower and heavy duty utility machine.
-- I don't to have to buy a new transmission to take care of the extra weight I'll be pulling.
IF I buy a Porsche, I expect horsepower and a high speed machine.
-- I don't want to have to open the boot, play with my MDI controller, put in a blow off value (crap design on the on my car) and what not just to go fast.

@ complete solution:
That's functionality, and what people expect is different.
I'd buy a Prius for mileage savings not for design. A pan-america because it is a Porsche and not for it's hideous design.
I also drive a Legacy B4, which is a much more complete solution. 4 wheel drive, speed (didn't get the turbo), design, 4 seater, boxer engine etc ... don't even have to tune it to go fast. But you still will have people who will disagree with my choice.

Am a opencart fan? No where near as I am of fan of OSX.
Am I realistic of opencart? yep, many things could be added on which is normally known as bloat.
Could opencart do more? Sure ... any software could, including my beloved OSX.
Are there or will there be better solutions? Sure, the iphone is going to get passed on day and so will OSX.

@ cms
This is something I am having an internal debate with myself for a long time.
oscommerce, zen and what not don't have it as a base core item (maybe times have changed)...

Does a cart need one?
Good question! I think it depends on what a person is trying to do.
Would be nice to have an option though ... but opencart does have news and faq extensions ...

People use WP, Joomla, Modx, etc ...

What functions of CMS do you really need?
I'm not being a smart arse hat about this, I really would like to know!

@ perfection
speed, design, security
Who offers that in any software?
Tell, me an you will have a new convert!

Basically, in any normal situation, you can choose only 2 of the 3.
price, speed, quality is the normal saying.

Add the 2 together and you get:
speed, design, security and price

I doubt anybody can offer that ...

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Post by caleb » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:05 pm

SapporoGuy wrote:Generally speaking:
Why should people have to tune a server to use something?
Surely you're kidding, right? IMO, this invalidates the rest of your post. It's not even worth anyones time to try to reply. Have you EVER setup a server of any kind or do you just rely on paid hosting?
Last edited by caleb on Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Qphoria » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:06 pm

SapporoGuy wrote: @ cms
This is something I am having an internal debate with myself for a long time.
oscommerce, zen and what not don't have it as a base core item (maybe times have changed)...

Does a cart need one?
Good question! I think it depends on what a person is trying to do.
Would be nice to have an option though ... but opencart does have news and faq extensions ...

People use WP, Joomla, Modx, etc ...

What functions of CMS do you really need?
I'm not being a smart arse hat about this, I really would like to know!
I too answered that same question with a question... a store is a store.. i goto a store to buy products. The description needs to be detailed yet concise.. I dont want to read your blog or long winded articles. And if I did, the information section or my CMS module is more than enough. I think a lot of people want the buzz words but don't really know why they want them. Remember.. bloat is bad

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Post by Qphoria » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:07 pm

caleb wrote:
SapporoGuy wrote:Generally speaking:
Why should people have to tune a server to use something?
Surely you're kidding, right? IMO, this invalidates the rest of your post. It's not even worth anyones time to try to reply. Have you EVER setup a server of any kind or do you just rely on paid hosting?
I don't think he's kidding at all.. sure you can tune it a bit but that shouldn't affect what scripts run on it.. and yea.. most people just run paid hosting.. what's your point?

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:20 pm

Why should it invalidate the rest of my post?

IF your code is slow, that is problem!

IF your sql queries are the problem why should I have to go in and fix them?
If your framework is pokey, why should I have to tune a server just to make it go faster?

Most people use virtual hosting with crap loads of other domains on it too. How do you expect people to deal with that?

Too many people have learned to live the M$ mentality that you have to upgrade your hardware just to use their software.
Why should I have to upgrade my cpu or graphics card to carry crap software.

I used M$ products before there was a M$ OS.
It worked, it was fast and it was the best at the time.
I heard that M$ word 3.01 was the shitz. Quick, did the job and worked.

So, what is your point?
That I have to buy the latest icore 5 or 7 just run win7 or vista? You are jesting for sure, aren't you?
Have you EVER setup a server of any kind?
I use a server everyday since ???
read the wikipedia entry just so you can understand:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_v10.0

Once again, if the software has a bad design or poorly coded, it will be slow.
I know, since I have written poorly designed and slow code.
I still do all the time :laugh:


Just FYI -- just talk to a few M$ coders and hear some of the stories about how many times the "F word" is commented in the XP source code. You first laugh and then shake your head in pity.

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:20 pm

--- erased since this came out as a double post --
Last edited by SapporoGuy on Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by caleb » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:20 pm

Qphoria wrote:
I don't think he's kidding at all.. sure you can tune it a bit but that shouldn't affect what scripts run on it.. and yea.. most people just run paid hosting.. what's your point?
My point is, if you're running your store on shared hosting, a full solution (like Magento) is probably not needed.

As afar as CMS goes, go take a peak at ANY major e-commerce store, I can give you a list of the top 25 in the world if you want, and every one of them has CMS functionality. The CMS is not the biggest glaring hole in open cart either. As you've seen in another post of mine, upgradability is laking. That is, in OC's stock without mod form. VQMod is hopeful, but it's an addition. Magento is fully upgradeable without touching modified files because mods don't touch the core system files. OC has no way to track options. By this I mean, if you have (as an example) a t-shirt that's offered in red, green, and blue and sizes L and XL. You have no way to specify inventory differences between the 5 green XL and the 3 red XL short of creating completely different items in your store, which defeats the purpose of options. I've only been using OC for about a month, but have found several short comings already. It's a good product, but to try and say it's "better" than Magento is dumb...but so is saying Magento is better than OC. Two different needs (as I said originally).

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Post by caleb » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:30 pm

SapporoGuy wrote:Why should it invalidate the rest of my post?

IF your code is slow, that is problem!

IF your sql queries are the problem why should I have to go in and fix them?
If your framework is pokey, why should I have to tune a server just to make it go faster?

Most people use virtual hosting with crap loads of other domains on it too. How do you expect people to deal with that?

Too many people have learned to live the M$ mentality that you have to upgrade your hardware just to use their software.
Why should I have to upgrade my cpu or graphics card to carry crap software.

I used M$ products before there was a M$ OS.
It worked, it was fast and it was the best at the time.
I heard that M$ word 3.01 was the shitz. Quick, did the job and worked.

So, what is your point?
That I have to buy the latest icore 5 or 7 just run win7 or vista? You are jesting for sure, aren't you?
Have you EVER setup a server of any kind?
I use a server everyday since ???
read the wikipedia entry just so you can understand:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_v10.0

Once again, if the software has a bad design or poorly coded, it will be slow.
I know, since I have written poorly designed and slow code.
I still do all the time :laugh:


Just FYI -- just talk to a few M$ coders and hear some of the stories about how many times the "F word" is commented in the XP source code. You first laugh and then shake your head in pity.
Haha, thanks for sharing the wiki article for OS X when we are discussing servers. I don't need an education on OS X (been my only desktop OS since OS 9 ;) ) but thanks for that. I work as an Engineer for one of the largest online retailers, I'm not just pulling this stuff out my ass. :)

FWIW, I've never had to touch a core file (app code or db code) ever on Magento to get it to perform great. To say you should have to tune your server is nuts. That's like trying to use your Porsche, from your post above, to tow your boat to the lake. It has the power to do it, but it's not setup for it. Just because it has an OS on it, doesn't mean it's meant to (or optimized to) run your code on it. Read my above post, Magento is NOT the ideal solution if shared hosting is serving your store needs. When you expand to needing more than a shared account, you'll see that carts like OC don't quite fit the bill. There's a solution for all needs, and it's quite often not the same solution.

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Post by Qphoria » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:37 pm

It is true that magento has a ton of features.. a few years older and 50 paid staff members will do that I guess. But I guess it comes down to what you need in a cart and how easy it is to setup. Its like OS'

Mac is supposed to be easy and simple for non-techies
Linux is supposed to be more advanced for the geeks
Windows is in the middle, taking most of the marketshare

I find opencart to be more in between Mac and Windows.. while magento is more of the linux... yea you can do this, that, and the other thing.. but do you really need to? and in the long run its not really needed by most.
caleb wrote: As afar as CMS goes, go take a peak at ANY major e-commerce store, I can give you a list of the top 25 in the world if you want, and every one of them has CMS functionality. The CMS is not the biggest glaring hole in open cart either. As you've seen in another post of mine, upgradability is laking.
I can't think of one that has a CMS. If they have one I've not found it so its certainly no major feature.
http://www.bestbuy.com
http://www.jcpenney.com
http://www.walmart.com
http://www.target.com
http://www.amazon.com

Upgrading is an issue I suppose, but I'm not sure how magento handles code customizations.. If you wanted to add a new field to the customer registration or add a custom field to the product table and show that new field as a column to the product list.. how do you add it without changing the code?

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:43 pm

@ better than magneto
I don't remember saying that or anybody really saying that here either.
Taking the piss out of the load times, yes. (google magento reviews and reviews of zend and you'll understand).

I downloaded like 4-5 carts before deciding to invest my time in opencart.
Good or bad choice, is my problem.
My "bad tuning" showed that opencart was fast compared to Magneto.

But not everybody is going to have the same criteria.

@ functionality
I already agreed that opencart could use more bloat functions.
I have also posted in other threads about some of my other ideas to make opencart better.

Why don't you either provide some code, donate to have the code built, or participate in threads that are devoted to the extensions you want?

Just saying that something is lacking and "you" should provide doesn't really help anybody.

@ top 25 stores
That would be interesting to see.
http://www.crateandbarrel.com/ uses aspx ...

Here is something I found with google.
Google uses a mix of languages for it's various purposes.

1. Orkut is in ASP.NET
2. Google's Help System is in Python
3. Definitely C/C++ for Searching
4. Google's real strength is in CSS & JavaScript
5. It uses AJAX to speed up what I think.

CGI is used at a lot of sites. PayPal(sister concern of EBay) uses it

Amazon uses CGI. Enter amazon.com/index.cgi to see yourself

And Python is a interpreted language as pointed out but it can be converted to native code & it can also call native code written using C++ (python code can also be called from C++).
To be honest, IF I were a top 25 store, I doubt if I'd be running php.
More likely a dedicated java solution would seem more to the point although the python guys might complain and say there grails solution is better.

So why the hard on for Magneto?
I clearly stated I go to anybody that can offer: speed, design, security and price


@ upgrading
Magneto is no better than any other platform or software.
There will come a day when backwards compatibility is gone and you will have to take some make changes to your code.

The only company I have seen that has been able to manage this some what is M$. But, they have some of the best talent and a pretty huge pocket book to throw at this.

Apple just gave the middle finger to most people after a while. I bet more out of waste of time and effort than anything else.

I don't want to bother but I bet that I'll end up modifying files even with magneto because I don't think it would be possible for it to offer every possible scenario that I can throw at it.

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Post by caleb » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:49 pm

Qphoria wrote:
I can't think of one that has a CMS. If they have one I've not found it so its certainly no major feature.
http://www.bestbuy.com
http://www.jcpenney.com
http://www.walmart.com
http://www.target.com
http://www.amazon.com
Seriously??? Look at the footer of every one of those, those pages are all managed through a CMS of some sort. CMS != Blog.
Qphoria wrote: Upgrading is an issue I suppose, but I'm not sure how magento handles code customizations.. If you wanted to add a new field to the customer registration or add a custom field to the product table and show that new field as a column to the product list.. how do you add it without changing the code?
Maybe you guys should be familiar with your "competition" before bashing it :) Magento handles it much like your VQMod does. You rarely ever touch a core file with Magento, and if the mods are done properly, they won't modify core files. Most of the stuff you have to modify files for in OC, you can do from within the Admin panel with Magento.

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Post by caleb » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:54 pm

SapporoGuy wrote:
@ top 25 stores
That would be interesting to see.
As soon as I get the report for tonight, I'll post it up.


So we're all saying the same thing then? Different solutions for different needs :)


FWIW, there's no "hard on" for Magento. Infact there's a lot I don't like about Magento too, usability is one thing. You can't turn a Magento store over to a newb and expect them to understand how to even add products, much less run the store. There's just a lot of misinformation that goes around from guys that have never even used the product.

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:01 pm

I did say I tried Magneto on my dev machine.
I found it to be slow compared to opencart.
- My settings, my machine, my concept of speed.

Haha, thanks for sharing the wiki article for OS X when we are discussing servers. I don't need an education on OS X (been my only desktop OS since OS 9 ) but thanks for that. I work as an Engineer for one of the largest online retailers, I'm not just pulling this stuff out my ass.
Surely you're kidding, right? IMO, this invalidates the rest of your post. It's not even worth anyones time to try to
reply
So, since you used OSX since MacOS 9 you do get the point on how you just invalidated your own statement right?
Because I don't get where I made a mistake with me stating that OSX is a server out of the box ...???? ???
Or are you saying that 3 clicks invalidates my point?
If so, I'll agree on that it is not started for you on install.


Ok, looks like I didn't read these parts properly.
Yes, you have to have more server resources for Magento, you also have to know how to properly tune your servers, you can't just throw it up on any LAMP hosting account like you can Open Cart.
To say you should have to tune your server is nuts.
So, if you're agreeing that Magneto requires tuning to run properly, then I'm sorry for my lack of paying attention and not reading properly.

However, I still believe that if you need to tune a server to run Magneto, you are probably in the big leagues and would not even bother looking at Magneto nor opencart as a solution.

Out curiosity, what programming language does your company's retail site use? (don't need to know the name of the store).

So, I end up again wondering what you are trying to get at.... ::)

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Post by SapporoGuy » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:08 pm

There's just a lot of misinformation that goes around from guys that have never even used the product.
Like I said, even if some of us are taking the piss out of Magneto; we may prefer opencart but I have never really seen anybody blatantly stating that opencart is better here.
Actually, don't need to since most people can google and make their own choices.

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