Post by i2Paq » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:55 pm

I know this has been discussed many time, no solution yet but a needed one.

Many of us, me included, used osCommerce before switching to OpenCart.

In osCommerce you can enter your sales price including or excluding VAT and osCommerce will do the rest for you.
In Europe, and maybe outside Europe as well, you will (only) get your customer sales price including VAT.

Sad to say that with osCommerce this was easy, for working with OpenCart it is a burden as you will have to re-calculate the price you have to enter excluding VAT.

I'm wondering if there is an easy solution for this (vQmod?) or if Daniel is willing to consider to listen to many of us requesting for a second field in the Admin product page where you can enter your sales price including VAT?
The osCommerce style.

I'm hoping for a response from Daniel not saying it is "not needed" but that he will look into this for a next release.

And I'm hoping for A LOT of responses from other OpenCart users supporting my request for this much needed feature.

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Post by MarketInSG » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:35 pm

It's good to have an option to have it turn off or on. So to me, this function should be included, since it doesn't affect users who don't wish to use it. No harm adding in another feature :)


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Post by fireatwire » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:49 am

EU laws require us to always show prices including VAT.
It would be easy to add this functionality in the admin, please consider it for the next release. I think that all EU shop owners would be happy if OC comes with this functionality.


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Post by victorj » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:48 pm

I totally agree with the above statements.
Especially with the upcomming vat changes from 19 to 21 % all prices have to recalculated.

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Post by uksitebuilder » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:45 pm

I created a vqmod a while back, maybe it still works with latest version

http://forum.opencart.com/viewtopic.php ... 42#p198234

It was for UK Vat @ 20%, so will need editing for 19% or 21%

Simply edit and replace 1.2 with 1.19 or 1.21

It still enters the ex-tax price in to the database but allows you to add it as inc vat in a separate field.

There is a demo running at: http://1511-2.designs.org.uk/admin/ edit a product to see it in action

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Post by i2Paq » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:46 pm

The funny things is that I just found out that PrestaShop had this functionality! :(

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Post by rmi » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:14 pm

Together with admin side also totals should be able to choose to show with or without vat (or both).

There is couple of mods to bypass these issues though:
- Bulk Product Update Pro (includes a way to easily input prices including taxes)
and
- Checkout prices with tax

I think mods like these should be built into core rather than adding new incomplete features just to expand THE list of features..

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Post by SXGuy » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:05 pm

fireatwire wrote:EU laws require us to always show prices including VAT.
It would be easy to add this functionality in the admin, please consider it for the next release. I think that all EU shop owners would be happy if OC comes with this functionality.
No no, EU Law requires that VAT breakdown is shown, i.e Net, Vat, Gross. (at least i know this is true in UK)

But thats nothing to do with inputing prices in admin, tottaly seperate.

victorj wrote:I totally agree with the above statements.
Especially with the upcomming vat changes from 19 to 21 % all prices have to recalculated.
Makes no difference, since you currently enter the price excluding VAT, any VAT change simply requires you update your VAT Class code.


And this leads me on to the cons of using prices including Vat/Tax in admin.

Lets say for example your VAT is 20% and your product is Net £100. so you enter £120 as your price including VAT with this mod.
OC then obviously has to seperate the VAT amount from the product price to be able to calculate all the seperate data in the cart at checkout.

Ok thats fine, but heres the massive CON.

Currently, if a VAT/TAX rate changes, no product prices are affected, because they are prices before VAT/TAX, the only thing you need do is update the VAT/TAX rate you use to reflect the increase. This would automatically update ALL prices on the store front.

Now if you were to input product prices including VAT/TAX in admin, whenever there is a VAT/TAX rate change, you now have to update ALL your product prices to reflect the change.

if something is £120 including vat at 20% and vat changes to 25% your method means you now have to input £125. (this of course applies to ALL product prices)

Now if you were to continue using the method opencart uses, your product would remain £100, and you simply update your tax class to 25% instead of 20%

One change, compared to potentially thousands of product price updates.

Thats why im against adding it to the core, because it will cause more confusion.

EDIT: I know it can be frustrating having to work out what the net price is when all you have is gross prices, but lets be clear, simply working out what it is at the time when the product is first entered is a lot quicker, than having to update ALL your product prices if a vat/tax rate changes.


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Post by i2Paq » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:13 pm

uksitebuilder wrote:I created a vqmod a while back, maybe it still works with latest version

http://forum.opencart.com/viewtopic.php ... 42#p198234

It was for UK Vat @ 20%, so will need editing for 19% or 21%

Simply edit and replace 1.2 with 1.19 or 1.21

It still enters the ex-tax price in to the database but allows you to add it as inc vat in a separate field.

There is a demo running at: http://1511-2.designs.org.uk/admin/ edit a product to see it in action
It still works on 1.5.4.1!

This should be easy enough to build into the core.

If you add the Deafult Tax Class to it then live would would get even more better :D

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Post by SXGuy » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:49 pm

i2Paq wrote:
uksitebuilder wrote:I created a vqmod a while back, maybe it still works with latest version

http://forum.opencart.com/viewtopic.php ... 42#p198234

It was for UK Vat @ 20%, so will need editing for 19% or 21%

Simply edit and replace 1.2 with 1.19 or 1.21

It still enters the ex-tax price in to the database but allows you to add it as inc vat in a separate field.

There is a demo running at: http://1511-2.designs.org.uk/admin/ edit a product to see it in action
It still works on 1.5.4.1!

This should be easy enough to build into the core.

If you add the Deafult Tax Class to it then live would would get even more better :D
EDIT:

This is the only way i can see it actually working, because by keeping the ex tax field, you have no problems when the tax class changes, all the prices will update correctly.

What we can not do, is physically store and use the price including tax, because it will reduce the excluding tax price everytime the tax rate is increased.


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Post by i2Paq » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:19 am

I agree, but what I'm trying to say is that when having the possibility to set a default Tax-class and have the vQmod build by uksitebuilder use this you do not need to edit the vQmod file.

I use the default Tax-class vQmod in my store and I love it.

Does not look much but these small things make the different.
These kind of new features should be implemented in the core.

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Post by SXGuy » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:34 am

if the way this vqmod is done was implimented i wouldnt be opposed to it.

My initial fear was that it was intended as a replacment to opencart using product prices excluding vat/tax to calculate store prices.

Because you could have a situation where by for example.

tax @ 20% on £100 would be added as £120, then a tax/vat rate change happens, and the store tax class is changed to 25%, you would then have to change the product price to £125.

Where as currently, because the prices are excluding vat/tax, only a store tax class change is needed, since it wouldnt affect the product price in any way.

But like i say, if its used to only convert a price to excluding vat/tax based on the tax class settings then thats not a bad idea :)


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Post by uksitebuilder » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:31 pm

I will have a look at implementing the default store tax class based on the store's locale.

The price saved to the DB is purely and only the ex-vat price.

If someone changes the tax rate then it will not have any influence as such.

It is purely a means for admin to enter a price easily.

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Post by rmi » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:21 am

I think everybody agrees that price in database should be tax0% (as it is now) and there is no other way for this.

No matter how prices are saved problem with changing tax % is that your prices will become too technical. If you sell something with 99,- (example price 80,4878 + tax23%) and when taxes go to 24% you propably won't be happy with 99,80 or not even if rounded to 100. So you need to manually update price to 79,8387 or 99 if having some tax calculator on top.

But the main problem with changing tax % is still there, you need to manually check/update all prices. Hopefully taxes don't change very often so I'm not sure if this needs to be fully supported in core.

But if problem needs to be solved each product will need to have setting for price whether to be recalculated (to keep consumer price constant when tax% changes) or not. This way shops only selling to local market could have all their prices automatically recalculated and international stores won't be affected since they could keep the tax 0% price constant.

Things get even more interesting if you want 99€ product to be also $99 and £99 for respective markets and still keep some track of your actual tax0% price..

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Post by SXGuy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:39 am

Actually i dont think that will be a problem.

Remember, prices excluding tax will stay the same, its the % of tax applied to the price that changes.

If the input field for price inc tax is used purely to recalculate what the excluding price would be, and the calculation is done by using the Current Tax Class, then there is no issue, since it will only affect the amount of tax added to the product price.

When you change the Tax class %, the only change made to prices is the amount of tax to add.

So long as the including tax input field is left alone once initially inputed there is no issue.

£99 inc 23% tax is 22.77 tax.

if the tax class is set to 23% and you input £99, it will add £76.23 to the database.

If the tax % changes to 24% then it will add 23.76 to 76.23 which would now equal 99.99.

Its not incorrect, if tax rate increases so must your product price. You dont decrease your product price to keep it at £99, unless you want to actually lose money.

You must always remember that applying tax to a price is your goverments way of collecting revenue, the amount before tax is what you keep as profit. So if the tax rate increases so must your product price.

There is an issue whereby in the uk for example, if stock was bought at x% tax they should be sold at x% tax until old stock is sold out and then the new y% tax is applied to new stock, but thats getting way techincal for now, as opencart cant handle that as it stands anyway.


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Post by i2Paq » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:47 pm

uksitebuilder wrote:I will have a look at implementing the default store tax class based on the store's locale.

The price saved to the DB is purely and only the ex-vat price.

If someone changes the tax rate then it will not have any influence as such.

It is purely a means for admin to enter a price easily.
If that could be done that would be perfect.

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Post by rmi » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:13 am

SXGuy wrote:Actually i dont think that will be a problem.

Remember, prices excluding tax will stay the same, its the % of tax applied to the price that changes. -clip-
If it's ok that your front prices are like 101.48€, why would you need to input prices incl.vat in first place? I wan't to round my prices in even numbers and if there is prices like 101.48 - I will go with 99 to feel less expensive. Sometimes can be rounding up too. And this is why I would like to input prices with vat because otherwise I have to calculate manually vat0% prices in 4 decimals to gain exact 'front prices'. But if changing vat% all nice prices needs to be updated one by one again.

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Post by SXGuy » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:22 pm

rmi wrote:
SXGuy wrote:Actually i dont think that will be a problem.

Remember, prices excluding tax will stay the same, its the % of tax applied to the price that changes. -clip-
If it's ok that your front prices are like 101.48€, why would you need to input prices incl.vat in first place? I wan't to round my prices in even numbers and if there is prices like 101.48 - I will go with 99 to feel less expensive. Sometimes can be rounding up too. And this is why I would like to input prices with vat because otherwise I have to calculate manually vat0% prices in 4 decimals to gain exact 'front prices'. But if changing vat% all nice prices needs to be updated one by one again.
What you do, with your prices, is your choice, but just remember, if the vat% increases, and you round your price down from 101.48 to 99, you are losing money on your profit.

So if you wish to loose money everytime the vat rate increases thats your choice.

£99 inc 20% vat = 79.20 (profit)
£99 inc 21% vat = 78.21
£99 inc 22% vat = 77.22

Plus your stock will also increase in price if vat rate changes, i know for a fact your supplier wont decrease their price, so not only have you lost money on your purchase, you lost money on your sales.

Like i said, up to you what you do with your prices, but i personally, will not be rounding down my prices if the vat rate increases.


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Post by rmi » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:41 am

SXGuy wrote:
What you do, with your prices, is your choice, but just remember, if the vat% increases, and you round your price down from 101.48 to 99, you are losing money on your profit.

So if you wish to loose money everytime the vat rate increases thats your choice.

£99 inc 20% vat = 79.20 (profit)
£99 inc 21% vat = 78.21
£99 inc 22% vat = 77.22
But the amount of sales is even more important, if your price goes from 399 to 4xx,xx it will propably lower the amount of sales. And it's better to have 1000x 9€ than 500x 10€ (don't get stuck on numbers, I mean principle).

What about those who need to update thousands of price-labels on their 'real world' stores beside webstore? I think you need to calculate some extra to your front prices to compensate minor changes in variables (like taxes, purchase prices, delivery cost, etc..)
SXGuy wrote: Plus your stock will also increase in price if vat rate changes, i know for a fact your supplier wont decrease their price, so not only have you lost money on your purchase, you lost money on your sales.
Why does my stock increase in price? You don't pay taxes twice? At least not in Finland, you will pay taxes with purchases but you get that money back and pay only with sales.. When importing, you don't pay taxes on purchase at all.. So stock value is vat0%
SXGuy wrote: Like i said, up to you what you do with your prices, but i personally, will not be rounding down my prices if the vat rate increases.
I didn't mean to discuss about sales analytics and I think we have enough of that.

Still it would be handy if you could choose to keep front prices constant when updating tax% (auto calculate new vat0% price for each product)

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Post by SXGuy » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:17 am

If keeping gross price constant when updateing tax % is a must for some, then id prefer to see it as an option to turn on or off.

Because for as many people who may want it that way, there will be just enough who doesnt.

I know that when you purchase your stock, the vat is offset against the vat you charge on your sales, that wasnt my point.

My point was, that if you keep your gross price the same, everytime the vat rate increases, a proportion of your sale which is vat, will increase, and the amount before vat, will decrease.

So by your example, you would end up owing more vat on your sales, than you could reclaim in your purchases.

Anyway, this is drifting off topic slightly, so i shall leave it there.


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